Behind the Lens: Sara Seligman on Amplifying Voices in Film

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[00:00:06] Rachel: Hello, and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast brought to you by Inclusion Geeks. What? We geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work to make the world a better and brighter place. I'm Rachel.

[00:00:23] Felicia: And I'm Felicia. And obviously, if you just listened to what Rachel just said, we've got some news to share with you. We changed our name.

[00:00:33] Rachel: Yeah, because you know, not enough things have happened this year.

[00:00:38] Felicia: You know, I feel like this is just part of our origin story ethos. Like we got to just change our name every couple of years to keep it fresh and lively, but.

[00:00:46] Rachel: I think so. I love that for us. Felicia, why did we even change our name? Who are we?

[00:00:53] Felicia: I mean, for longtime listeners and folks who are familiar with us this, like I said, not the first time we've done this so it's not our [00:01:00] first rodeo, but we have been thinking about our name for a very long time, because We changed our name from Boston Girl Geek Dinners to She Geeks Out, when was that, um, 2015?

[00:01:12] Rachel: 2015. So almost 10 years later.

[00:01:17] Felicia: Poof! And when did we add the plus to our name, do you remember?

[00:01:21] Rachel: 2017.

[00:01:22] Felicia: Okay, you've got such a good memory. 

[00:01:24] Rachel: I may or may not have been updating our About page on our website. So,

[00:01:30] Felicia: see. The secret is out. Um, yeah, but you know, so we added that in because we didn't want to do a full name change because, you know, it's a little involved.

[00:01:38] There's a lot of moving pieces to it. It's not a, a change you take lightly, but we wanted to be more expansive at that point in how we were defining woman and who we were serving. And at that point we also had a very, very robust community, which sadly is not the case today, but. We have, as we've shifted over the last couple years into really [00:02:00] not by choice, but moving away from our community roots to focusing primarily and really essentially only on our DEI training, one of the questions that I'm sure you all can imagine we got a lot is, okay, so she geeks out.

[00:02:14] You only talk about gender, right? And the answer is no. We know our name is super feminine, but we actually talk about a lot of other stuff besides gender, because it's not only about gender. It's about race and ethnicity and social class and disability and all of those other identities and isms that are out

[00:02:32] Rachel: Humans. Spell

[00:02:33] Felicia: humans. Yeah. And so, you know, Most of our, well, I should say all of our clients get it because they didn't get it. They wouldn't work with us, but it's been a longstanding conversation that it always felt like a, we have to explain ourselves to get the point of who we are across. And then again, for those of you who've been around for a while, you may notice that we like to refer to ourselves as SGO.

[00:02:55] And that was kind of our way of differentiating between the community side was, which was she [00:03:00] geeks out and our training arm, which was SGO. Uh, but at this point, we're like, okay. A lot has changed for us over the last four years. We are no longer the same company that we were before COVID. It's just the reality of it.

[00:03:14] We are focused primarily and only on our training. Our community, as much as we love and miss them, it's just not happening at this point. And we have sunsetted it already. So we figured why not have a name that really better and accurately represents who we are today. I kind of think it's like a, we're like the Phoenix rising from the ashes.

[00:03:35] Rachel: It's never a dull moment. And, and so a couple of things about specifically about the words that we chose. So with inclusion, we decided to keep inclusion as the word. And, you know, we think we went through back and forth with a lot of different options. Why we landed on inclusion is when we look at the, uh, enormous alphabet of terms, we find that inclusion [00:04:00] is perhaps the most accessible of the terminology, the one that's sort of clearest, the one that people can sort of grasp on without necessarily needing to have some more education around it.

[00:04:10] I think the term diversity can be misused very easily. Um, people can swap it out for race or gender when it's actually much broader than that. It really means difference When we look at the word equity, I think there's a lot of confusion around what equity means, what equity versus, um, equality. What is that? Is it a VC term?

[00:04:31] Like, what is that? What is it? So, so inclusion, we can sort of grab on that a little bit, um, more easily. And then obviously geeks, you know, we are geeks at the end of the day. Look, we, we geek out about this work. We care deeply about it. When we do do the work, it's not just like, okay, great. We. Wrote a workshop where we're delivering this workshop and this is the same workshop that we're going to deliver like over and over again.

[00:04:55] No, we're constantly learning. We're constantly evolving the work that we do because we do [00:05:00] care deeply about it. And this work changes a lot. So that is why we are inclusion geeks. Oh, also, we like to embrace our awkward. So that is also part of the geek

[00:05:10] Felicia: I, that's not going away. That's going to still be very important to us. But I, and I just want to clarify to in case anyone's wondering, like, this isn't to say that we're trying to deemphasize the importance of diversity or, or, or equity. And I'm, I think it's especially important to name that because I know we talked on this podcast in the past couple of weeks about, um, the decision that Sherm had made to really sort of deemphasize equity and remove it from In favor of inclusion.

[00:05:37] So just to be clear, this is nothing to do with that. Not influenced by that at all. And I still very much disagree with Sherm's approach, but this is not the same kind of conversation. It just happens to have the same terminology. So just being really clear about that because equity in my mind is still so critical to the work.

[00:05:57] And so in terms of our naming, [00:06:00] it's just about, you know, we talk a lot about, we want to meet people where they're at. And then bring them along. So we're meeting people where they're at by getting them in the door with inclusion geeks so that we're not going to have the questions or concerns about the femininity or the gender focus or things like that.

[00:06:15] And then once we got them and, you know, start working together, we'll bring you along to where we think you need to be and where you want to be.

[00:06:24] Rachel: Love that. Yes. Plus one to everything you just said. Oh,

[00:06:27] Felicia: in a geeky fashion, of course.

[00:06:28] Rachel: of course, in a geeky, well, well and welcoming fashion. Absolutely. And I'll just want to just switch topics because I also want to say this is being published on September 4th.

[00:06:40] Felicia: Happy birthday.

[00:06:41] Rachel: Thank you. Yeah, and we also have to celebrate Beyonce's birthday as well because no big deal, but I still

[00:06:47] Felicia: less 

[00:06:47] Rachel: a birthday with, oh, obviously, and you know, we're basically the same, so it just, it just makes sense.

[00:06:56] Uh, look, we're both Virgos. At the end of the day, that's,

[00:06:59] Felicia: [00:07:00] So when we're off of this podcast, you have got to tell me what happened in that elevator

[00:07:09] Rachel: Look, she's written, she's written a lot about it. Um, no, that's, that's hilarious. Yeah. So, so, uh, I hope that if anyone is actually listening to this on the day, just, you know, wish me a little happy birthday. Let's put this good energy out there.

[00:07:26] Felicia: Wait, where? Where can people wish you a happy birthday? Where? Where are you? Where, where are you on? Like what? What platforms are you using these days?

[00:07:33] Rachel: I use, I use the Instagrams and the LinkedIn's, um, I think I can be found. Oh, I could put them in the show notes.

[00:07:40] Felicia: that's exciting.

[00:07:40] Rachel: I'll get like four more followers.

[00:07:43] Felicia: Yeah. So if you're listening to this and you want to follow Rachel, or if you don't want to follow her, uh, totally fine, I guess, and just wish her a happy birthday,

[00:07:52] Rachel: out in the ethos. Yeah. Like just out, I'll, I'll get the energy. I'll just receive it. That day. So I mean, it's like a [00:08:00] Wednesday. So what even is that after Labor Day? What even is that day? So it's gonna be great. Uh, anything else before we, uh, move on?

[00:08:09] Felicia: No, I think let's get into our guests for today. So we are chatting today with Sara Seligman. She's a writer, a producer, and a director. We talk about her villain origin story, very exciting. Her involvement with the film Ramadan America. And we also get into some of the nitty gritty details that are related to what it actually means to produce a movie.

[00:08:31] Rachel: And before we welcome the lovely and talented Sara, we want to share an exciting resource with you. Did you know that we offer a fantastic newsletter packed with the latest news, insights, and resources on workplace inclusion? It's the best source for learning how to support a truly fair and inclusive work environment.

[00:08:47] So don't miss out. Sign up today at inclusiongeeks. com slash newsletter. Stay informed and inspired. Welcome to the show, Sara. [00:09:00] 

[00:09:03] Felicia: Welcome, Sara. So happy to have you here.

[00:09:06] Sara: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:09:09] Felicia: So you're a writer, you're a producer, you're a director, and your feature film debut was Coyote Lake, which came out in 2019. And it has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 89%. I'm definitely a Rotten Tomatoes follower. Your episodic directorial debut was with MGM's Hotel Cocaine that premiered in June of this year.

[00:09:26] And so by the time this episode goes live, Those episodes, in case anyone's curious, 105 and 106 will have already aired at this point. I think only one has aired so far. So let's just start off with how did you get into this work, into film? What's your origin story?

[00:09:43] Sara: My origin story, it's like a villain origins, origin story.

[00:09:50] Felicia: Ooh, I'm excited.

[00:09:51] Rachel: Wow.

[00:09:53] Felicia: I don't think anyone's ever said that to us before. So I'm so excited to hear what comes next.[00:10:00] 

[00:10:00] Sara: it's now I feel like I overplayed it. It's not a villain origin

[00:10:04] Rachel: sara, you could just make stuff up now. It's totally fine.

[00:10:07] Sara: kind of want to just because I wanted to make villain origin story. That's like the trend, right? All the movies now are the origin stories of the villains to make them sympathetic. My sympathetic story is that I'm the daughter of a physics professor very much into academia research and a mom that studied philosophy and law and was very much into that.

[00:10:34] And so we didn't have a television at home. And so my villain origin story is saying ha, I'm not allowed to watch TV. Now I work in TV. That's it.

[00:10:45] Rachel: Love that revenge.

[00:10:47] Sara: Now I make the thing, the very thing that was forbidden at home. We literally did not have a television at home. The origin story is a little bit longer just because I guess film and television was just [00:11:00] like, I knew it exists that I would watch it at friends homes, but it was so abstract and distant to me that it didn't seem like a possibility at all.

[00:11:09] Growing up, I wanted to be a ballet dancer. So I studied professional ballet in Mexico. And then I got a scholarship for a ballet school in Germany. And at 15, I had a career ending knee injury. The ballet training is eight years and I was on, I had just finished my fifth year. It was like right before my final exam of my fifth year.

[00:11:35] So it was really rough. So I moved back to Mexico and I was just really. lost because ballet, like any sport is just so all consuming that I don't think I had an identity outside of Sara, the ballet dancer. And it was very difficult when you're already 16 and a teenager and lost in every other sense of the word to lose that [00:12:00] one thing that was your guiding post in life.

[00:12:03] And I know a lot of 16 years old Also don't know what to do word with their lives, but for me it was foreign because I had always known and very specifically and focused work towards that goal. So when I moved back to Mexico. My mom was a little worried I was like depressed. I wasn't doing much after I was going to school, normal school, and then I was just locking myself up in my room. So she put me in a lot of afterschool activities and one of them was an acting course and it was a lot of fun. And then a director. I'm from Mexico. I was born and raised in Mexico. So I'm in Mexico at that point. And a director went to our school because they were looking for a actor.

[00:12:50] And instead of doing auditions, he just went and observed the class. And I got cast on a telenovela. [00:13:00] And that was really fun. So I did telenovelas and telenovela type shows. There's these famous shows where they reenact real life stories. It's called Mujeres in one tv network and lo que callamos las mujeres in the competing tv network i was in the lo que callamos las mujeres and 

[00:13:23] Rachel: Sara, were you a villain?

[00:13:25] Sara: no i was always cast as the good girl 

[00:13:29] Rachel: Okay. I get it.

[00:13:31] Sara: i did that for four years and in four years i one time got cast as a villain and it was the best like that is the highlight of my life now that because of like i'm

[00:13:42] Felicia: I'm sensing a 

[00:13:42] theme, just putting it out there, but

[00:13:45] Sara: I was not living my fantasy except for one episode. I did a couple telenovelas that were like long running. But these were very often stories that are a single story per episode. So you only get to shoot for one week.

[00:13:58] So I only got to be a [00:14:00] villain for one week on that one episode. When I was a villain, it was one of those single story per episode, but anyways, it was really fun, but it was not what I wanted to do. And I realized that but it was like my introduction because I saw the behind the cameras and I saw all the people and it's all these jobs that had never even been in my mind as a possibility or as an existence. So when I was 20, I decided that I didn't want to do acting for the rest of my life. So, what did I want to do? Something behind the cameras. So I moved to New York. I was still doing acting in New York initially for a little bit, actually.

[00:14:42] I initially still wanted to be an actress, did acting school in New York and during an acting class. I got really mad at the acting teacher. So the acting teachers often are like directors when you're in acting class, because you're performing a scene and then they give you [00:15:00] direction. And it was an emotional scene and the way she was directing me in the emotional sense was utilitarian.

[00:15:09] It was just like, cry, and I was like, it's an 8 page scene, I don't think my character would cry for 8 pages, and also it's this ghost appears, so when a ghost appears, I don't think the first thing I would do is cry, first I would be scared and incredulous, and then maybe because of the ghost says some really upsetting things, eventually I'll cry, but I don't want to cry the entire scene, and I don't know.

[00:15:31] She said, use this technique, which is an acting technique, where like you use this completely separate emotion of your life that makes you cry. So use that, do the scene again, and cry. And I was like, that emotion is not even remotely connected. It was crying over the loss of a loved one, versus this was like more an angry, fearful.

[00:15:52] And I was like, this makes no sense. She was like, just do it. Then we were done and she was like, that was amazing. Didn't you love it? And I was like, no, [00:16:00] it was terrible. I wasn't listening to my scene partner. We were not connected. I was literally just saying my lines because I know them so well, but I was not in the moment.

[00:16:11] It sucked. And she was like this is what acting is. And I was so sad. And then it was like, I don't know that I want to do this. And I thought. Acting, that's the problem. It's directing, that's the problem. And I could be a better director than her. Not that she was a director. And that's the moment where I was like, I can do this. I don't know why, but I decided that if she could do that, I could do it in a better way. That was a better experience for the actors.

[00:16:39] And that's when I went to film school. And I wasn't sure that I was going to feel like I could do it. I just knew at that moment that acting wasn't going to be it for me, and I was going to try it out, but I actually started film school in January, and I did all of my [00:17:00] paperwork to start college in September, because I don't, I thought I could do it better than her, but that didn't mean that I could do it for a living.

[00:17:08] I didn't believe in myself to that point, so I was like, I'm gonna learn this skill, but I started the process to, to submit to a college and I was like, I'm just going to completely change careers. I was going to study something completely separate. But then I loved it when I was in film school and I didn't go to the college I got into and I just stayed in film school.

[00:17:30] And that's a very long winded version of my origin story.

[00:17:33] Rachel: No, that's fantastic. And it's funny because your mom gave you acting lessons, even though you didn't have TV. It feels like she was part of your revenge story too, maybe deep down inside.

[00:17:48] Sara: I think she was more hoping theater and Shakespeare,

[00:17:51] Rachel: Oh, womp. Sorry, mom.

[00:17:53] Sara: , they're both very happy and very supportive. It's, that's why I'm saying it's a very mild villain story because they've been very supportive, [00:18:00] but it is very funny 

[00:18:02] Rachel: I love that. It's so funny. And was that how you got to LA? You're in LA in Hollywood now?

[00:18:08] Sara: Yes. So I moved to New York first because my idea was that if this happens, I'm going to eventually live in LA. So I want to experience New York first. So I'm going to go to school in New York and then move to LA, which my advice to myself now would be don't do it because going to school is where you build your support system you're going to build that and then you're going to abandon it.

[00:18:33] And then you're going to go somewhere and not know anyone. I literally knew one person when I moved to LA another fellow production assistant that I had met in New York. I understand why I wanted it, and it was awesome, and I don't regret it, but I wouldn't, I don't think it's the smartest choice.

[00:18:55] Felicia: That makes total sense. And I think on the flip side though, I feel like that's the LA [00:19:00] story, right? Everyone moves there, not knowing anyone with a hope and a dream. But we actually connected with you because you worked as a producer on a film called Ramadan America. And so I'd love to hear from you a bit more.

[00:19:13] How did you get involved with that project?

[00:19:18] I really enjoy producing. I think I see myself like the dream is to direct. I write because I need to, but I love producing as well. I love both the job itself, the organizational side and the creative elements that come to that. And I also love. uplifting other voices and other people, especially if they are underrepresented communities and people, because I'm just not the right person to tell every single story.

[00:19:52] Sara: There's a lot of stories I'm passionate about and I still want to be involved in them. So producing is a really good conduit to do [00:20:00] that. I was producing some things with my producing partner, Tom Bond.

[00:20:06] We have a little production company called Broken Pig Productions. And we had produced a few short films and that are part of either anthologies or part of the Huluween universe. And I think that's how we started meeting people. I'm not sure who recommended us to Assad, but he interviewed us and told us a little bit about his idea of what he wanted to do.

[00:20:35] At that point he hadn't selected the filmmakers yet, so at that point it was just the idea of, we will put out a call for Muslim scripts, and then we will hire Muslim directors that are not the same as the writers, and try to have as much of a diverse crew and that in itself I already love just like the [00:21:00] concept of creating these opportunity for up and coming filmmakers because everyone when you're trying to make it always tells you need more experience.

[00:21:10] And what I love about filmmaking is that it's so collaborative, right? But if you want to be a novelist or a painter, you lock yourself in and you do it. When you're wanting to be a filmmaker, it's really hard because Yes, there's phones and yes, you can do it a lot cheaper now, but it's never or very seldom unless you have a very artistic, creative idea.

[00:21:32] It's never just you. You need a team. You need a village that supports you. And so it's fun to be part of that village that supports first time filmmakers or up and coming filmmakers so that they can build their resume. and get those opportunities that they deserve and that they will be amazing at.

[00:21:52] So we said yes before seeing the scripts and then we saw the scripts and they selected the directors and it was just very [00:22:00] exciting to be on set and meet a variety of really talented filmmakers and then also the crew because it's not the same crew for every single short. There are some repeat crew members, but it's just really fun to meet all these different people and see different artistic approaches and also, I don't know if you've seen the film, but every short is just so different. What ties them together is the Muslim experience, but not the tone.

[00:22:30] Or the genre or anything. So it was really fun to be part of that.

[00:22:35] Rachel: Yeah, we're big fans of it. Actually we get an opportunity to see it and we loved the different stories, the different tones and the different approaches. They were lovely. So thank you for doing that. And, I think it's confusing for people what does a producer do?

[00:22:49] You think about the movie or Broadway where it's like, they're the ones, they're the money people. 

[00:22:54] Felicia: The producers.

[00:22:55] Rachel: the producers,

[00:22:57] so what, yeah, so what exactly [00:23:00] does a producer do?

[00:23:02] Sara: I think the first thing we need to highlight is that there are different types of producer and different producing titles. And also producing titles are given away as a, sometimes as form of payment. So having a producer title doesn't necessarily mean the same thing in the same movie. It can mean many things in many movies.

[00:23:25] It can mean you are the owner of the IP. And you made a deal and you said, I want producer credit or executive producer credit or associate producer. You probably asked for producer and they said no. And then you negotiated your way into one of the other co producer, associate producer, executive producer, post production producer.

[00:23:50] I don't know. I've seen all sorts of producer credits, right? And yes, there's the producers that are the money people. There's the producers that are the owners [00:24:00] of the IP and then perhaps don't involve further. There's the producers that are sometimes the actors whose name carries so much weight, which is the reason you got the money.

[00:24:11] And they get a producer credit kind of like to make up for that because maybe your budget is low and you're not paying them or because that's the only way they'll be in the movie.

[00:24:20] Rachel: Yeah, I always think about that with Only Murders in the Building. I look at the, the producers are all the three major actors of it, and I'm like, Oh, interesting. How does that work?

[00:24:30] Sara: Yes, exactly. And because there is obviously a financial ownership that you gain with the producer credits. The one I can talk about is the physical producer, which is like the producer that actually does the producing of the project right in the actual creating. There's also the people that You know, the studio executives sometimes get associate producer credits because they work for a studio for years and sometimes they spend five, six, [00:25:00] seven years from the moment they read a book to the moment we see it on the screen.

[00:25:04] So it's like they that is also an incredible. and producing completely necessary for us to see it come very different and something I would not know how to do because it's the packaging and the getting the names and the connecting the right people. So yeah, the physical producer, which sometimes is credited as the line producer, is the person that does.

[00:25:30] Imagine more like the the organizer. You're the logistics boss of the project. And that one comes sometimes with more or with less creative say I always find producing, even in the times where I've only been like a production supervisor, where it's a hundred percent, I'm not creatively involved in the creative side of the project, but I find the job of a producer still needs to be [00:26:00] creative problem solving. Because basically what you do is like you start at the very beginning from putting together the budget. Think the right thing would be is that you read a script, you make a budget, and you say this is how much money you do you need.

[00:26:14] Usually it's not like that. Usually it is this is how much money you have. And usually the money they give you is not the money you need to do it properly, or the way you would love, which is the way where the director gets what they need, people get paid the best rates, you don't rush people, you don't rush the schedule.

[00:26:36] So it depends. And you also want to be realistic. So the first thing you do is you do a budget and to do a budget, you have to make a very tentative shooting schedule and an assistant director will later fix it. And sometimes. They will say that the producer did a horrible job, which sometimes we do because we're doing it with very little information, but you just want to gauge like, how [00:27:00] many days do I need to shoot this realistically?

[00:27:03] And then sometimes you're like, okay. I need 20 days if it's a feature. And then you make the budget and you're like, yeah, there's no way we're going to get that much money. So you start cutting days because that is just the fastest way of saving money. So first you do a budget. Ideally, then you either you get the money or as a line producer or with Ramadan America, we get hired once the money is already there.

[00:27:27] So you just take the budget, know how the money make the budget and then you just start hiring. So you're the hiring manager of every single department head and every vendor. This includes equipment, locations, catering, insurance payroll, legal, like a lot of boring parts that are like essential to permits, city permits.

[00:27:54] If you have a higher budget. You do more supervising. If you have a lower budget, you [00:28:00] do more doing. So like in the Ramadan America, we didn't have a budget for location managers. So as producers, we were also the location managers. And so little things like that, that when you, we don't have a transportation department on a low budget thing, so you are the transportation department and you are the office PAs and you are the office coordinator and all of the things. So depending on the budget, you physically do more or less things, but basically your job is to do all of the hiring and organizing and executing of every element so that everything that needs to be there on the shooting day is there for the director to come in and do what they need to do.

[00:28:46] So it's a lot of collaborating and asking questions to the department heads. I think as a good producer, it's a lot of remembering that you're not the expert. And you're there to serve others, not others to [00:29:00] serve you. And so you need to ask every department what they need, but then they also need to work with you because, again, everyone wants the best things and all the things and we just don't have the money for it.

[00:29:12] So it's like finding that middle ground and those solutions. And then you plan everything to a T, and then you show up and things start going wrong. So that's when the creative problem solving starts, and also in the planning, you have to sometimes be like okay they want this kind of money we don't have it.

[00:29:29] So how can we, you can come up with creative ideas on how they could potentially fix things. When we do something like Ramadan America. where the filmmakers maybe are not as experienced. We don't force it, but we try to guide them with advice on things that we see red flags of choices they're making that we know will hinder them in production.

[00:29:55] We advise them not to do it. Sometimes they choose to still do it and then they learn [00:30:00] in production that it hindered them and we're just there to not say, I told you but to try and still make it work. At the same time, what sometimes new filmmakers don't know is that a producer is not a director's employee.

[00:30:18] Your boss is the money person and your actual goal is to make sure you don't go over budget. You want to deliver a movie, so you want to make sure they shoot all the pieces, but you want to make sure that you're on budget, which means that you're on schedule, which means there is no overtime. So sometimes I feel like there is this difficult thing where you want to collaborate with the director and you want to serve their vision, but you still have another boss.

[00:30:46] And sometimes that other bosses. It's the direct opposite of what the director needs, and you have to find that balance of helping the director get what they want, but also being realistic with what you have. And again, it depends [00:31:00] on the movie and the project. I'm sure if you're like some big shot director producer, you know you're going to go back to the studio and say they want an extra million and they're going to say yes.

[00:31:09] When you're doing something like this, there is not a single more cent and you just have to say no.

[00:31:16] Felicia: That is an amazing answer, So interesting, so complicated. And it's so funny because I feel like there's tons of similarities between what you just described around producing and event planning and startup worlds, which is more our jam, like that's our background. And as you were talking, both Rachel and I are like, our brains are buzzing.

[00:31:38] Cause we're like, oh, that's. So similar to what we have done in the past or what we do right now with our business world in terms of managing all those pieces and handling differing, goals and trying to stay on budget and pay people and, support people and all that stuff. 

[00:31:55] I'm definitely that kind of person who always looks at the credits when they roll. And I'm like, But [00:32:00] who what was this executive producer actually doing? Were they just, is it just a name or, are they driving people? So I feel like I have a little bit more of an insight

[00:32:07] into that 

[00:32:08] Rachel: totally. And line producer, I always wondered what line producer meant. Now I'm

[00:32:12] Felicia: I know. 

[00:32:13] Rachel: respect to line producers.

[00:32:14] Felicia: I will say, I always thought it was you stood with a piece of paper on the lines if someone forgot them. Maybe that's part of it. I don't know. But that 

[00:32:22] was my mental 

[00:32:23] Sara: I think it refers to the line items in the budget. So 

[00:32:26] Rachel: Oh,

[00:32:28] Sara: The keeper of the 

[00:32:29] Felicia: sense. Okay.

[00:32:31] Rachel: blowing our minds, Sara. 

[00:32:32] Felicia: I can also see why it's probably really helpful for you as a producer to have your directing experience. Because like you just said, you're not the director's employee, but you're working with a director. And sometimes it's about managing that and, for things like putting that budget and schedule together, knowing the other pieces of how stuff works could probably be really helpful.

[00:32:52] So let's talk same question, but from the directing lens. So what are some challenges or obstacles that people face trying to get into directing? [00:33:00] We hear a lot about acting especially.

[00:33:02] And I feel like the lay person has a good sense of, how challenging it can be to break into acting. But what about directing, especially for folks like yourself, you're a woman and a Latina. What does that whole approach look like?

[00:33:17] Sara: First of all, I agree. I think having directed helps me be a better producer, but I honestly think having been a producer and a production supervisor and assistant director helps me more as a director, not only to be a better director, but to convince producers and executives to give me a shot when I'm starting.

[00:33:40] So I think. The difficult thing about breaking into directing is there's so many things like the first thing is that there's different types of directing. There's commercials, there's television, which then gets subdivided into like soaps [00:34:00] the multicam universe, half hour shows, and one hour shows.

[00:34:07] And then there is features, and then features gets subdivided into ultra low budget, and budget, and then Marvel Insanity Universe, right? And the crazy thing is that you break into one, oh and then there's music videos. You break into one, it does not mean you're gonna break into the others.

[00:34:27] The people deciding to give us the opportunities, whether it is if it's a low budget movie, it's the financiers. If it's a TV show, it's the studio executives and the showrunners. Or in a studio movie, it's the studio executives. They are afraid that one thing does not translate to the other. And As frustrating as it is, I do see it, and I have worked with directors like in these different short films and programs in Ramadan America that have certain experience, and it doesn't always [00:35:00] necessarily translate to the other thing.

[00:35:02] And I think one of the reasons why it's so difficult is that When you're a writer, you write and you show what you wrote. When you're an actor, you act and you show how you act. When you're a director, you show a reel and they're like, okay, but was it you? Or was it the producer and the director of photography?

[00:35:22] And because we've been on sets. Where the person carrying the story is the director of photography and I can tell oh, I don't know if this director without their director of photography who they've been working with for 20 years or 10 years or five years could generally shoot a movie because the director of photography is holding their hand.

[00:35:48] Like maybe they're doing a good job directing actors, but they don't know how to do coverage. They don't know how to tell a story visually. And that's the scary thing is like you can see a reel or [00:36:00] a film, a sample, but you just don't know, right? Like you don't know until you're there and it's usually so much money.

[00:36:09] Even in the littlest of projects, it's so much money. So I think the least, the big, easiest way to break in as a writer, because if you have an amazing script that people love, it's already there, and it's not a risk. As a direct, as an actor, it's a little bit of a risk, because you can have a great audition and then show up on set and freeze and not know your lines.

[00:36:32] But a director is usually the biggest risk. That's what makes it really hard. And then just the fact that all these different types of directing do not. Oh, and then there's obviously short films, which we do them not to make money, but as samples and people can love them, but it doesn't necessarily translate.

[00:36:54] So I think for directors to break in, there is like the dream story version where you make, [00:37:00] something. It goes to the big festivals. It does really well. And boom, you get offers, right? You're like the new hot director. That's awesome. I'm so happy for whoever had that, but it's not the most common.

[00:37:15] There's only a handful of people that have that experience. Then there's all the other people. And it's just so difficult. For instance, I'm completely unable. I've tried to break into directing commercials. They just do not trust that someone that directs TV and film can direct commercials. I've been a producer for commercials and while I disagree with their assessment, I completely understand why. Because the structure is so different on how the set works even, on how the set is run.

[00:37:50] Like when I'm an assistant director for a commercial and an assistant director on narrative show it's completely different jobs and like your boss and the way [00:38:00] even you run the set is different like every after every single shot, usually you check if the director is happy and then you move on. In a commercial you check if the director is happy and then you check if the client is happy and then the client gets to tell the director and in a commercial there is a storyboard and the storyboard is not a reference the storyboard is something you're trying to imitate to a tee.

[00:38:23] And if you start to divert from it, the client will get very nervous. The storyboard was approved for a reason and everything gets approved by the client and some clients are very chill and some clients are very difficult. But also you are usually spending a lot more money, which is also very scary because there's commercial that are easily Like 200 K a day.

[00:38:49] That could be the budget for a very small, but like a feature. So a commercial, you shoot three days. That's 600 K or a million. You could make a feature that shoots for 20 [00:39:00] or 30 days. You're all spend it in three days 

[00:39:04] Felicia: I'm like shocked that commercials are so expensive to be really honest as someone who only consumes them by watching TV. Truly shocking to know that the average commercial I'm watching could have been like a million dollars 

[00:39:16] versus a 

[00:39:17] Sara: the biggest example I would say is if you look at a commercial, if you look at a scene of a narrative thing, chances are you're going to see the same shot, like cutting, we call it cutting back to a shot, multiple times. So like I'm talking and you see me like this, and then they cut to you, and then they come back to me like this, and then they cut to you, and then they cut back to me.

[00:39:40] In a commercial, you will probably never see the same shot twice. I'm talking like this, then the next one I'm like this, then the camera's moving like this. Because it's a storyboard, every moment is so carefully crafted. And that's just like how that industry developed. And shooting that, [00:40:00] like the amount of individual setups and shots you do in a day, is the same as you do on a show, but you're getting moments.

[00:40:12] And you're getting very specific moments and then also you have so many cooks in the kitchen you need more takes and you need more versions . The more cooks in the kitchen really slows you down but I would say on average they get a similar amount of shots per day.

[00:40:28] But just the shots are only used once for one second, whereas in a narrative, in a scene, you use them multiple times, so it makes you move a lot faster.

[00:40:38] Rachel: wow. It's so interesting too, that piece about one of the big differences for advertisers, you have to get the approval of the client. And it made me think about Disney movies and Barbie, where it feels like they're so tight. They're almost advertisements because there's going to be so much profit from all of the other things outside of the thing.

[00:40:57] I wonder if there's that level [00:41:00] of attention and scrutiny for certain films.

[00:41:03] Sara: I'm sure there is that level of scrutiny, but even if the executives approve everything, and then they watch something, and then they're like, we don't like it, in big budget things they have time to go back and reshoot something . But having the client on set. is extremely time consuming. But also then you don't go back for reshoots. So it has its benefits, but it explains why it's so much slower and also explains why they're like, many directors would not be able to handle that. And as a director, you're suddenly having an entire other skill set of just like almost politics,

[00:41:37] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:41:38] Sara: like managing these people.

[00:41:40] And what If you're on a set and something goes wrong and you have to change the game plan, you just do it. And then if the studio doesn't like it, they're going to not like it tomorrow and then you'll deal with it later. If commercially it's not working, you're dealing with it then in addition with the crisis that whatever [00:42:00] it is you were going to do is not working.

[00:42:01] Rachel: Yes.

[00:42:02] Sara: You get everything approved. And there's always a client. It's very rare. You need to be Scorsese or Tarantino to not have a client. It's just like how the client presents themselves and how the amount of interaction is. And I think that's one thing that they don't teach us in film school.

[00:42:19] And they teach us this imaginary world where directors are a auteurs and we do what we want. It's yeah, we'll get to that place. You're either making a short film with your own money or you have achieved. the pinnacle of creativity, but anywhere in between you have a boss. The final cut of every single project I've done that airs is not the director's cut.

[00:42:46] Rachel: That's why there's special editions.

[00:42:48] Sara: Yes, because we have our version of things that broke our heart that the producers made us cut out or the, yeah, one of the producers usually the money producers or the studio [00:43:00] or whatever. So that's why it's so different and then you work so hard to break into one of these branches. But it won't translate because then just because commercials take so long, obviously, when a commercial director wants to do a feature, the executives are like, No, you do commercials, you're going to be really slow.

[00:43:19] There's no way you can keep up with the speed of the feature.

[00:43:23] Rachel: So funny.

[00:43:24] Sara: You're you need too much handholding. And then when you do a feature, if it's low budget, they're like you can't handle a big budget. Then when you're trying to go from features to television, there, it's In between. In a feature, the boss is the director on set, even though you still have to handle the studio, which is your client per se, and you have to find those creative commonplaces, but on set, you're usually the boss.

[00:43:53] In a TV show the boss is the showrunner, and then up below the showrunner is the [00:44:00] producing director. Again, another producer that is not producing, just a lot of writers get producing credits, and they do a different type of producing, but not the physical production. So the producing director is the one that directed the pilot, so he established, or she, they established the look of the show.

[00:44:20] How it's going to feel and then when you're a guest director, it's literally your job to not insert your vision, but to carry their, the EP directors and the showrunners vision merged. into every episode because you don't want your episodes to not fit in. It's a puzzle, it's part of a bigger piece.

[00:44:39] So when executives are hiring a TV director and you made a movie, they're like you don't know how a TV set works. You don't know to respect the showrunner and the EP producer director. You don't know Usually a TV set is faster. You have to move a lot faster than in a feature, not so much than in a low budget feature, but a [00:45:00] medium budget feature or a high budget feature.

[00:45:03] So it's like every branch has its own set of skills and everybody is afraid that you don't have those set of skills. And those set of skills are all the ones that we don't learn in film school that have nothing to do with the understanding of framing. A little bit of directing actors like when you're a guest director on a TV show.

[00:45:24] The actors are there for all the episodes so you can't just show up and have an actor like, completely change their character. They would probably tell you no and look at you like you're crazy, but what if they did? You would ruin the show. So there's an entire world, I think, of learning that at least in, in my experience, from my own film school experience and from what I've seen other directors, they don't learn, which is what people are really scared of, which is A, in general, I think directors are missing a leadership class.

[00:45:57] I think and producers as well. [00:46:00] I think being at the helm. 

Marker

[00:46:02] Sara: Having leadership skills and just learning different management styles because a you want to pick the management style that works for you and your personality. But also, as when you run a company, you sometimes have to adapt to the person you're managing.

[00:46:19] So like we learned that for actors, you can't direct every actor the same way, but we don't learn that about the crew and everything like you're there to motivate people. And to me, as a director, I think it's very important. important to empower each department because they're the experts you're like the overseer the creative overseer and the producer is your like right hand who's like the logistics and money overseer and if you both Producer and director trust your department heads, which hopefully you were part of the hiring process and you hire them for a reason.

[00:46:53] You let them flourish and be creative. You don't, you're not there just to impose. It's not a monarchy, but you also don't want to [00:47:00] go all the way to a democracy because then if everyone gets a vote, then it just takes too long and the vision is all over the place. So you had need to find that middle ground.

[00:47:10] Felicia: It's so funny because I'm developing a leadership program for a client that has completely unrelated to what to film or directing or producing. But it struck me just now as you were going through all the ins and outs, one of the things I'm working with this group is showcasing different leadership styles.

[00:47:26] And I'm just like, Oh, I should send you some of these options because it's complicated and there are multiple ways to be a leader. But yeah, like no one teaches this stuff, it's hard to get into it. 

[00:47:36] Sara: Really, it took me 10 years to get coyote lake made, and I was really both annoyed and tired and a little bit like. Just frustrated, right? It's not easy to wait that long, but I think that a, obviously as you grow and you learn in life, you're directing changes [00:48:00] because I think it's just so much about like your experience.

Marker

[00:48:02] Sara: Like when people tell me how do you leave your vision? It's the moment I have to interpret something, My fingerprints will be on it because if I interpret it, therefore it's from my point of view of my experience of my life as a woman, a Mexican, a Latina, a millennial, like all the different things that make me, it's going to be imprinted in there.

[00:48:23] So I don't spend too much time being like, what makes it mine? I don't know. It's going to be mine because I, it came through me. So obviously directing my first feature later, I think made it better just because I was more mature, but also because in that process of waiting, I went back to school and I got a degree in business management where I learned a lot about leadership skills and management styles, which I had not learned before.

[00:48:53] And it really helped me. And then I became a production supervisor for a TV show where I had started as a [00:49:00] PA. So it taught me a lot. A, because of the jump, some people were extremely supportive. Having met me as a PA and then suddenly I come back and I'm their supervisor.

[00:49:10] For some people it was like, oh my God, that's awesome. And for some people was like, hell no. We're not here for this. This is unfair. You don't deserve to be there. And I think it was amazing because I didn't have the pressure of directing, but I had to learn a lot about just being on a TV show production, supervising a TV show, I learned a lot, but also I learned a lot about these different leadership and management skills from people that were pushing back, people that were extremely supportive, different personalities. I'm a woman, I'm younger than a lot of the people I was supervising, and there were a lot of men, drivers, grip, construction. Some of them were just pushing back, not even because it was me, but just because I was a woman, because I've never done construction.

[00:49:59] They're like, you don't know what [00:50:00] you're talking about. And that's, I think, so important. Leadership is like, Yeah, sometimes I don't know the level that you know, but we need to come to an understanding because I have some information that is important that you don't know, and you have information. So let's just communicate and you don't get defensive or like insecure in proving your power over them and instead are like, Yeah, I know I don't know. Can you please explain to me? Because look, this is the problem I have, which is usually a scheduling or budgeting problem and you have a problem of We're not giving you enough time and money. How can we make this work? Because the studio is not going to give us more time or money. Tell me and we can, come back with a suggestion or proposal.

[00:50:44] Even if we are going to ask for more time or money, me, as the person asking for it, I need to understand exactly why and how much. Yes, I think, leadership skills and that's where it like all goes back to the having [00:51:00] produced and production supervised is I think when people ask me like how did I break in the feature I broke in because it was just literally the finding the financing some people offered to buy the script if I didn't direct and just sticking to my guns and saying no to that which was very nerve wracking and obviously took a lot longer.

[00:51:22] And then I had to make the movie with a much smaller budget than I think it needed. But it came to a point where it just felt like I just need to get my first feature made. And then for the TV side, I think I really leaned on when having this interview and understanding that the jump of a feature director to a TV director so scary for people to explain to them why I was ready.

[00:51:51] And it was precisely because I understood the jump and telling them like, I've been a production supervisor. I've seen how a guest [00:52:00] director has to behave and how they do not have to behave and how it's not the same as a feature and how it's not about my vision. And all of those things are details that it's going to be hard regardless, but if filmmakers and directors know that and can try to learn about it and speak to it in the interviews, it might open more doors.

[00:52:20] Rachel: thank you so much for sharing that. It makes it sound really hard. And that's great, because I'm sure it is. I want to pivot just a little bit, still related- when we were looking at some numbers, some demographics around who makes up showrunners and directors.

[00:52:37] And so we look up, Latinx folks make about 25 percent of the U S population, but the number of showrunners is 1. 5%, only 1. 3 percent for directors. Number of numbers for lead and ensemble actors are also very low. Just curious a, why you think this is and B, how do you feel about the term [00:53:00] Latinx?

[00:53:00] Cause it's,

[00:53:01] Sara: Yeah I think first, like with the representation I think it's extra sad because you think you said the number is like 25 percent for the population, as far as moviegoers. I think the Latinx community is about 40% of the people that like buy tickets. I forget, but recently they showed the numbers for In and Out too.

[00:53:25] And I think for that specific movie it was like 40% and for another movie, like 30%. So like as far as movie going population, which is like the dying part that I'm scared of. My community is so involved and it's just like such a we can think that we like to do and that we grew up to that.

[00:53:45] It's like it makes it just extra sad because not only are we a part of the population, but we're a very active part of the population, and you're still not giving us an inch of representation. [00:54:00] I wish I knew why. I know it's hard to break in. I know that, obviously, white supremacy and the systems that have been built, obviously, for women, it makes it an additional level of difficulty breaking in.

[00:54:18] It's just the system is built like that, and it's hard to break down a system where the people in the highest positions making the decisions are not diverse.

[00:54:30] It's that hard thing, I forget who said it, but they were talking about how they're afraid, and I think Disney is doing a good job with all the problems, problematic things that Disney does. They're doing a good job at making their princesses diverse, because at some point, I think there was a perception that diverse characters wouldn't be relatable to the white, Anglo white community.

[00:54:58] You [00:55:00] Whereas the non anglo white community had always figured out a way to, relate to the, even women, to relate to the male lead. Girls still like Spider Man, like my little god daughter. Who is three years old, is the biggest Spider Man fan. She does not care that Spider Man is a boy.

[00:55:20] She loves Spider Man and Spider Man is her hero. And that's that. So like that disconnect that I think is slowly breaking down, where, like people need to see always a hero that looks like them. I think it's important that we have representation . If non Anglo white people were able to relate to them, why wouldn't they, the reverse?

[00:55:40] I think little white girls can still love the non white princesses

[00:55:47] Rachel: Yeah, the, and the success of, Moana, which I've said this before, is I think it's one of the most feminist movies of our time, that is something that's very relatable for a lot of people and very successful. So hopefully that will change, but [00:56:00] to your point, you're right, like the systems are really locked in and it does make it really challenging.

[00:56:06] Sara: right? And then as far as the term Latinx. Okay, then I feel like I've only been giving like really long winded convoluted answers and this one is going to be again very long winded and convoluted.

[00:56:19] Rachel: You're doing great.

[00:56:20] Sara: Thank you. I think the difficulty with a term that is an umbrella term for such a diverse group is always going to be alienating to some, and I think it's fine to use it as long as you understand to whom it's alienating and why.

Marker

[00:56:38] Sara: So I was born and raised in Mexico. As a Latina in Mexico, I never felt Latina because everyone here is Latino. So being Latina is not racial like a racial or ethnical difference. Here I'm white, and I have all the privileges of a white person, [00:57:00] and there are people that are darker skinned, there are black Mexicans that are incredibly oppressed, there's indigenous Mexicans that have been incredibly oppressed, so I can't flag that I'm a Latina, but almost everyone here is.

[00:57:17] There's a lot of Mexicans of color. Asian descent that are very oppressed of like other races and cultures. So I think it's I think step one is understanding that a lot of Latinos that live in their Latin American countries will never feel connected to that because they've never experienced it.

[00:57:41] The moment I left my country and moved to Germany to boarding school and I was othered for being Mexican, And well in Germany for being Jewish, even though I'm not practicing or like religious in any way so that was very confusing to me but they're like you have a [00:58:00] Jewish last name, and ethnically part Jewish therefore you're Jewish and I'm like okay I thought Jewish was a religion and that's when I learned and I understood that there's also like the cultural and the ethnical side of Judaism so As a 14 year old moving and suddenly being told you're a Latina and you're a Jew.

[00:58:20] And I was like, Oh, I thought I'm just Sara, the ballet dancer, right? Oh, these labels like didn't make sense to me. And I don't think I grasped them at that age and boarding school. Luckily it was a very international boarding school. So it was there, but it wasn't very in my face. It wasn't until I moved to the U S where you have to fill out these documents and you have to check Latina or like Hispanic slash not Latina or non Hispanic and then the race and I'm like I am biracial, but I guess I'm also white. I'm like learning and unlearning. There was all this unpacking that I had to do and learning [00:59:00] about my whiteness and what does my whiteness mean and what does my white privilege mean as a white Latina.

[00:59:07] And then the diversity, there's black Latinos and there is racialized Latinos. A lot of indigenous people will never, ever accept the term Latino because they're indigenous and they were oppressed by the Latinos and mestizaje, which is what Latinos are, is the exact product of their oppression.

[00:59:31] Like my mestizaje is the product of my great grandmother being kidnapped and married off to a Spaniard and completely diluting the chipcha side of my family. I'm very distant of it. I feel very Latina because I've lived in the U. S. so long. And so while I completely understand why Indigenous people and people that live in Latin America might feel very alienated from that term when you live in the U. [01:00:00] S. And even though I'm white, I am reminded all the time there that I'm not. Anglo white, and that I am othered, and that I do have an accent, and that I am Mexican. Suddenly you're like, oh wait, I can find a home and a belonging in the term Latina. When I meet other Latinos, regardless of where they're from, and regardless of how different our cultures are, we feel a connection.

[01:00:26] And suddenly you realize the value in Latinidad, and the value in Chicanos, and the value in all these different identities, which are like, I think it's important to realize that these identities are created, I think, as a result of oppression and of being othered by a white Anglo community. Like the term was invented by the white Anglos.

[01:00:53] And we take back the term and empower ourselves with it and we fight back. So there's people that are just going to be always [01:01:00] against it. There's people that hate the term Hispanic because that connects you to Spain, our coppers, our oppressors. So I want to be Latina.

[01:01:10] Felicia: it's so complicated. We could probably talk for literally hours more about this, but I really appreciate you digging into it because I know you've said, Oh, I've been very long winded, but this is like barely even scratching the surface, but it's so much, important. Notes that you brought up and things to keep in mind.

[01:01:29] And I appreciate you sharing a little bit more about your own identities too, because I can certainly relate to that. It's It can be very complicated. We have one minute left together very sadly, which is unbelievable. But can we just wrap by asking where can people find you if they want to learn more about the work that you're doing, your production work, your directing work, anything else?

[01:01:50] How can people find you? Is there anything you'd like to share or promote?

[01:01:54] Sara: Yes, they can find me on my Instagram Sara Seligman. Sara spelled like a [01:02:00] Latina in Spanish without an H. S A R A S E L I G M A N. And yeah I post there a little bit about the behind the scenes and what I'm up to. And hopefully I'll be posting more exciting news soon.

[01:02:15] Rachel: Yay.

[01:02:15] Felicia: Awesome. Thank you so much, Sara.

[01:02:17] Rachel: Thank you, Sara.

[01:02:18] Felicia: All right. Thank you, Sara, again. And for all of you still listening at this point, we hope you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed the conversation. Before I pass it over to my lovely co host, I just want to say, you know, the intro we embrace our awkward. I love it so much. And the other thing I want to say really quickly is that you may notice that when we did our intro, we said the she geeks out podcast presented by inclusion geeks.

[01:02:47] So we're still going to be the she geeks out podcast. Don't worry. So if you're like, Oh my gosh, what's happening with the podcast, we're presenting the podcast.

[01:02:56] Rachel: Thank you so much for that clarification. I appreciate you. [01:03:00] Um, and thank you, lovely listeners for listening. Don't forget to rate, share, subscribe. It really does make a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, this work and visit us on YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date on all things inclusion geeks.

[01:03:15] Stay geeky, my friends.

[01:03:17] Felicia: Bye.