Allyship Actions and Learning Along the Way with Karen Catlin

[00:00:03] Felicia: Hi, and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast, where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work, making the world a better and brighter place. I'm Felicia.

[00:00:15] Rachel: And I'm Rachel. Today, we're speaking to a repeat guest. Hooray, Karen Catlin, author, advocate for inclusive workspaces and creator of Better Allies.

[00:00:25] Rachel: She last joined us on the pod in 2020. Ah, such good times. She joined us to talk about 10 years of working on Better Allies and what she's learned about allyship over the past decade. If you haven't listened to Karen's first pod interview with us. Pause this and go check that out first, then come back once you're done. And I think we got some things to talk about before we, uh,

[00:00:47] Felicia: do we ever.

[00:00:48] Rachel: interview. So today is November 18th, and it is worth noting that this is actually our last episode, uh, before we take a little bit of a break, and boy, what a way to, to end it.

[00:01:00] Felicia: What a way to roll things up and close up shop for the year. Oh, I just look back at when we last recorded pre election. What was that two weeks ago, and I just feel so, so sad for pre election "us"es, or I should say so sad for post election.

[00:01:21] Rachel: Yeah, I know. Pre election "us"es, we still had feelings of hope and joy. We've been obviously thinking a lot about what this means for the work that we do. We have certainly seen a shift in the energy toward this work, in the workplace and the world, and a pushback. And I think now with the election as it is as it is, it as it stands, the pushback really has some, some real teeth, you know. The people in power do not want to have conversations about how to make the workplace work for everyone.

[00:01:59] Felicia: Or even better. I mean, just looking at, again, on November 18th, we're just seeing a whole host of nominations and it's, you know, it's scary times, especially considering these are people who are in power or will soon be in power. And these are folks who are just, you know, felons, rapists, pedophiles.

[00:02:20] Felicia: I mean, it's just, this is, we're in the darkest timeline. Um, yeah. So, you know, what does this mean for us? . Obviously, Rachel and I, we've been talking and thinking about this for quite a while, so it's not like this was not one of the possibilities that we had thought about. We had hoped this wouldn't come to bear, but we talked and thought a lot about DEI because even in our time doing this work, it's evolved quite a bit.

[00:02:45] Felicia: When we started doing this work back in 2016, it was D and I, diversity and inclusion. And I still remember one of the first conversations we ever had with someone who was in the space and she was, saying D E I. And I remember thinking, what is she talking about? So, you know, that was only gosh, eight years ago or so, nine years ago, who knows, but, it's evolved quite a bit.

[00:03:06] Felicia: And so I think from my perspective, as far as that goes, this will continue to be really important. We are already seeing shifts in, What language clients or potential clients are using. So trending more towards how do we have dialogues? How do we have civility in the workplace? Things like that are coming up.

[00:03:26] Felicia: Um, but we're also seeing continuations and trends that we've seen even before the election around the importance of emotional intelligence, psychological safety, the idea of belonging. Those will just continue to be more important. So I think from that standpoint, the work will continue. It's just how, what shape will it take? What will it look like? How much will be supported by organizations and companies? I don't know yet.

[00:03:50] Rachel: yeah, that's the reality. We're grateful for the folks that are continuing to partner with us. To echo what you said, Felicia, I think it is about sort of the, the shifts in focus. We've talked a lot about the isms, right. And it's a lot about identity and, There's definitely a pullback on conversations around identity in many cases, but not in all cases.

[00:04:12] Rachel: So we're still seeing conversations around how different generations are working together, how different cultures are working together, even, you know, introverts versus extroverts. It feels like there is still a desire to figure this out, but what's sad is that we have not fixed racism or misogyny, I think it's very clear and not that it's something that we could easily snap our fingers and fix, but

[00:04:39] Felicia: you know, like, that's the thing, right? I mean, we're, we're part of this too. We're like, Oh, if we could just like snap our fingers and fix it, but it took us a long time to get here. It's going to take us a long time to get out of it, you know?

[00:04:49] Rachel: Yeah. It's just, some of the sadness for us is that there has been such a, a pushback, like a seesaw on the other side that there's just now it's like where we were leaning into in 2020 of, you know, having these conversations around white supremacy and, and people sort of just examining what, how race shows up in different contexts.

[00:05:11] Rachel: And I think because the people who are. in power, the people who have the biggest voices, and a lot of people who don't have voices but still hold that white privilege, um, or male privilege, or heterosexual privilege, were finding themselves on the sort of the other side of that conversation and feeling othered, know, which is so ironic. There's been this pullback, and so now we can't have these conversations anymore. Because of the feelings of being misunderstood.

[00:05:44] Felicia: Yeah. It's going to be, and I hate to say this because it's like small comfort right now, but it's going to be such an interesting case study 10 years from now or whatever. But we really see obviously this huge pendulum shift from a societal standpoint towards, as you just said, examining and digging into some of these deep seated isms and, and issues that we have on a systemic level with our, our country and beyond.

[00:06:09] Felicia: But I think what we're also seeing is that change is really hard, and this is the pushback of that fear of losing power, of losing access to power and privilege, and also the internalized isms, right? And that's something where, you know, you, we, we sort of maybe naively thought, okay, four years of doing some of this work, we've been able to move the needle.

[00:06:34] Felicia: And we talk a lot about moving the needle, but I think, you know, it's, it's really that one step forward, three steps back situation that we're finding ourselves in right now. From a historical standpoint, like, again, DEI, or however you want to call it, has taken many shapes and forms throughout the decades.

[00:06:49] Felicia: So it was multiculturalism, it was pluralism, it was cultural sensitivity, it was all sorts of different things. So we are just entering into a new era of what it's going to look like, but it's still going to be important. And it's still, the work is still there. It's just going to be a lot harder. And that's just the reality of it.

[00:07:07] Rachel: Yeah, it is. It's going to be harder. And I think, yeah, having these, these different conversations around identity is going to be, it's just going to be really hard. I talked a little bit about race, but gender is obviously another really big issue. And I think it's, um, one that is just, it's like a punch in the gut.

[00:07:27] Rachel: I think with this particular administration, because they're so blatantly, there are just so many people that clearly hate women. I don't know

[00:07:37] Felicia: Yeah, I mean, there's no other way to say it.

[00:07:39] Rachel: When,

[00:07:39] Felicia: There is no other way to say it. Yeah.

[00:07:41] Rachel: you see a meme come out that says, you know, your body, my choice, it sends a powerful message of where we're going and, and you mentioned the internalized piece. There's internalized misogyny, internalized race, and it's not just going to be white men, white, heterosexual, cisgender men who are going to be voting against our interests.

[00:08:05] Rachel: It's, it's going to be across the board and that is why when we talk about these issues, we talk about them systemically because we have been raised in this environment. We have been socialized to, to accept so much. And the only sort of comfort that I really take right now is that I think we as a society have so much more knowledge around how we are showing up in these spaces.

[00:08:30] Rachel: Obviously it's a small number still, clearly as we saw with the election results, but it's still a higher number than it was 10 years ago. You know, the conversations weren't happening at all. We didn't know. There has been an awakening. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube. Yeah.

[00:08:47] Felicia: exactly. And it just, again, like this stuff takes time. And that's, I think, frustrating on all levels for people who've been doing this work for ages and ages. And then for people who are new to the work, or however you're coming into it, it is just frustrating to see that we have had so much momentum in the last couple years, yet we're still.

[00:09:08] Felicia: You know, not able to get to where we'd like to be, right? It's a scary time for a lot of folks right now. And, You and I have been talking a lot about our fears around seeing further divisions within groups and that this is how we fall apart is when we're not able to build coalitions, we're not able to support each other.

[00:09:26] Felicia: We have a time of just, upheaval right now in groups that we are part of where we're trying to move forward and make progress and it's really splintered in a lot of ways. So it's gonna be, it's gonna be tricky going forward. Yeah.

[00:09:42] Rachel: So, you know, for us, we are going to continue to do the work. We are, our mission is not changing. We still want to make sure, do our very best, everything that we can do to make workplaces work for everyone. We may have adjusted our words that we say, but we do want to abolish inequity in the workplace.

[00:10:02] Rachel: That is ultimately what we are about. This is something that shouldn't be debatable. You know, we want, everyone wants to be treated fairly. I wrote recently a, an article around meritocracy. And I think so much about this is that so many of us want the same things. You know, I had a conversation with some family members recently that are on the right and they're so frustrated by the identity politics and always having the why do you have to be, you know, a Muslim American or whatever?

[00:10:31] Rachel: Like they literally used that as the example. you know, I was thinking about it and we talk about identity, it is not because we are like, Ooh, I want to talk about being a woman, or I want to talk about being a white woman. It is because society has required me to do this.

[00:10:47] Rachel: I would love the idea of everything being equal and a meritocracy. That sounds delightful to me. But until we get to that point, we have to bring in these other factors. I wish that they didn't exist. I wish that everything was fair.

[00:11:02] Felicia: And it's interesting, I mean, you know, and again, we could probably talk about this for ages and ages because, especially for us here in America, this whole conversation, this whole country is built on the ultimate original sin, right? And we are not anywhere near prepared to deal with that.

[00:11:16] Felicia: The rot that is at the core of what everything is coming out of this. I do think that it's so interesting and somewhat ironic because for so many generations and decades and however much time you want to look at, the US and America has been shored up and presented as this melting pot, right?

[00:11:37] Felicia: And that's our strength. Like I'm thinking about the, the Paris Olympics, what a time, what a different time in our lives. But you know, like we, we look at that. And we can see how, literally, how diversity is our strength. American athletes, literally. Right. And I think about the fact that the story was that we come together and we celebrate the differences underneath this umbrella of being an American or, you know, being whatever it is. Right. Now been turned on its head against folks. And so to your point, like, why can't we celebrate our differences knowing that we're all here together? This is sort of a side note, but I've been doing a lot of like doom scrolling on TikTok, which is really unhealthy.

[00:12:17] Felicia: So if you're listening to this, please, uh, read a book. 

[00:12:20] Rachel: Do as Felicia says, not as she

[00:12:22] Felicia: Not as I do. That's the kind of role model I am these days, . I've been doing a lot of scrolling on TikTok and there's this creator, I'll have to put a link in the show notes to his profile. He's just so delightful.

[00:12:33] Felicia: His name is Nicholas. He lives in New York City. And his whole thing is he just goes and talks with people in different immigrant communities. So like the Trinidadians, the Palestinians, the Pakistanis, the Dominicans, and he just connects with all of these people on food and love and their stories.

[00:12:51] Felicia: And they're so happy to be here in New York. And but they're also so proud of their backgrounds and it's just so beautiful. Honestly, it's been giving me a little bit of joy in, in these, you know, not to put it lightly, dark times. And so I, I just think back to that. I'm like, we need to think about like, where are those points of connection? Because that's what is going to get us through this really.

[00:13:15] Rachel: yeah. And if you're listening to this, I'm making the assumption that we don't have any frat boys listening to this. So probably people who are more in line with, I know, Elon, we know you're listening,

[00:13:26] Felicia: my God.

[00:13:27] Rachel: but my point of saying this is that, you know, you're probably similar,

[00:13:32] Felicia: Like one of us probably.

[00:13:34] Rachel: and yeah, I know that you're not alone.

[00:13:36] Rachel: There are a lot of us that are out there that are really trying to make a difference. So connect with us on LinkedIn. We've got thoughts and obviously, and we're, we're not giving up quite yet. So stay tuned.

[00:13:47] Felicia: Yeah. And you know, on that note, another way you can connect with us is our newsletter. So before we go ahead and officially welcome Karen into the conversation, we would love to just reshare our exciting newsletter resource with you. And so it's packed with news, insights, resources, all stuff workplace inclusion, what we're up to. We are biased, but we think it is the best source for learning how to support a really, truly fair and inclusive work environment. So if you haven't already, go ahead and sign up today at inclusiongeeks. com forward slash newsletter to stay informed and up to date with what we're up to. So with that, welcome to the show, Karen.

[00:14:22] Rachel: Welcome Karen. 

[00:14:25] Felicia: Hi, Karen would love to have you start us off by sharing just a quick overview of who you are, what you do for any of our listeners who may not be familiar with you and your work. I know that it's hard to imagine, but they might be out there.

[00:14:40] Karen: Oh, I'm sure they are out there. And, um, hello. Well, thank you for having me on. I'm Karen Catlin. I'm a former tech executive who now focuses on creating more inclusive workplaces where everyone can do their best work and thrive. I do that by writing, so I'm the author of a series of books called Better Allies and related books.

[00:15:01] Karen: I send out a popular weekly newsletter called five ally actions. I'm all about trying to make , very difficult topic more attainable, doable so that people actually get involved with this and don't step back.

[00:15:14] Rachel: Oh, we're such fans of you. We've been fans of you for many, many years. And what's exciting is this is our second time chatting with you and the first time was in 2020. What even was 2020? We don't know. It does feel like a lifetime ago. We were just chatting a little bit before mic, how our background situations are so much different than they were back in 2020.

[00:15:35] Rachel: So, what have you been up to over the last four ish years?

[00:15:40] Karen: I know. Okay. So in 2020, when I was on your podcast, I was kind of new to podcasting, trying to figure it all out. And someone had told me closets are the most Like the best place to record because they have so many clothes and that dampens all the external noise and everything. So I used to record in the closet.

[00:15:58] Karen: I since have upgraded cause we've, I've done so many remote things now, but remote webinars and meetings and podcasts I've upgraded. I have a home office with some soundproofing and a great mic and everything. So that's one thing that's changed. But on a more serious note, what have I been up to some ways?

[00:16:18] Karen: So like, it's, it's Like nothing. And at the same time, well, I've kind of been busy. Um, I've published a second edition of my bestselling book, Better Allies. I've come out with two more books in the Better Allies series, and I've reached so many people through this work that I get to do. So it's, um, it's been a lot of fun.

[00:16:37] Karen: I'll say a lot of fun.

[00:16:39] Rachel: Well, I have a follow up question, actually, you are also an author. Just as a side note, kind of curious about the publishing process and why did you decide that this was the medium that you were going to use to get all of your wonderful thoughts out?

[00:16:54] Karen: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, you may remember that all of the work I started doing on Better Allies was through Twitter. I started a Twitter handle called Better Allies 10 years ago and just started tweeting simple everyday actions people could take. Now that Twitter handle people found it, people, you know, tagged their friends to follow it and so forth.

[00:17:17] Karen: It started growing in popularity and that was when Twitter used to be fun. I'll say. 

[00:17:23] Rachel: before the takeover?

[00:17:24] Karen: Before the takeover. It's definitely not the same place anymore. At any rate, it used to be fun. It was incredibly energizing community building, all sorts of things. But through that Twitter handle, people started asking me to come speak at their event or their company or something. So I, I was doing a lot of speaking on Better Allies.

[00:17:44] Karen: And every time I gave a talk in the early years, someone in the audience would say some form of this question, they would say, Hey, Karen, this was a good talk. But we want more. Do you have a book? And first time it was like, no, I don't have a book. I have this Twitter handle. Go check it out. Second time. It was like, well, um, no book yet.

[00:18:02] Karen: Third time, like books coming soon. So anyway, it was really driven by what people ask me to do. Um, I can't say that 10 years ago, I had this vision that I would have published four books about being Better Allies or any of this work. I mean, I really didn't have a vision for what this could become, but it's because people have reached out and given me direction, given me the guidance that I kind of needed to figure out how to fill this need that was out there.

[00:18:30] Felicia: I love how you just phrased that because I think that speaks to allyship in and of itself right? Part of the work of being an ally is listening to people and accepting guidance or at least being open to it. It's kind of funny that that's translates into your process for disseminating the information in and of itself.

[00:18:51] Felicia: But it's been 10 years. So, what have you learned about allyship along the way? Is there anything that sticks out to you? I'm sure you're like, I've learned so much Felicia and Rachel, but is there anything that's like super top of mind that really stands out as far as a learning?

[00:19:05] Karen: Well, so my initial pull into this work, the original reason I got involved with this work was because I was a woman in tech and I was underrepresented and I knew what my experience was all about. And I wanted to help basically the, the white guys out there in leadership roles to understand, Hey, this is what it's like to be underrepresented in tech.

[00:19:27] Karen: And here's things you can do. That was my goal. I used to literally have on my website. I've walked a mile in your shoes, something like that. And that's so naive, in hindsight, like I know that the only shoes I've walked in are my own and I am a white woman. Who had a lot of privilege when I was working in tech, so many different kinds of privilege. My experience was so different than someone who might have additional levels of intersectionality because they are women of color, black women, or living with disabilities and so forth, there's so many ways that I had privilege that. I couldn't, I mean, I just didn't know what I didn't know at the time.

[00:20:07] Karen: So what a huge learning for me has been to realize that this work of allyship has to go beyond the white woman, supporting the white woman and making sure that we as Better Allies are really trying to look at making sure everyone can do their best work and thrive, and most of our focus needs to be on people who are overlooked otherwise, traditionally overlooked because of their identity. So that has been a huge learning for me. And frankly, you know, some of this, it's just like, I kind of just started paying attention and I got it. But then there are events that catalyzed me leaning in and learning more. Events like George Floyd's murder, which was a huge wake up call for many of us in the U S and around the world.

[00:20:50] Karen: I will admit that forced me or encouraged me or catalyzed me. I think that's the word I'm looking for. It catalyzed me to pay attention more to the experience of black people in our workplaces. Different events around hate that have made the news towards Asian American people, anti Semitism towards Jewish people. There's so many different events that catalyzed me like I got to go learn more about that. So I am doing my best to make sure it's just not talking about the shoes that I've walked in, but that I'm trying to be empathetic and understand others.

[00:21:24] Rachel: That's so beautiful, and not easy. We all know that allyship is a practice. It's not a check the box approach. And so, you know, we're going to make mistakes. So just curious, you've already talked about the learning that you've done, but can you share any mistakes or any additional aha moments that you've had and how you've worked through it.

[00:21:47] Karen: Definitely. Uh, Rachel, first of all, I want to address something you just said, this stuff isn't easy. It's not easy. If I, at the very beginning, realized everything I didn't know and realized how hard this work is, I probably wouldn't have even started. Fortunately I'm a little naive at times.

[00:22:04] Karen: I'm very optimistic and kind of embrace that lean startup approach of things of like, let's test things out and see what happens. If I had known I probably would not have done any of this work. So I just want to acknowledge that. Yeah, this work is hard and I keep learning every day. And yes, I make mistakes.

[00:22:24] Karen: I make mistakes all the time. More than I wish I did. The, uh, silver lining when I do make a mistake is I'm someone who I learn. I try not to get defensive. I learned from them. And then I have something I can share in my newsletter with my subscriber base so that they can learn with me.

[00:22:41] Karen: So it's, there's a silver lining to every time I make a mistake, at least I have something for my newsletter. Oh my gosh, by the way, and I'm going to get to some details, but I just want to share with you. I call my newsletter five ally actions. And the reason I chose five ally actions is there was some other newsletter author who I assumed probably had a big PR team behind him.

[00:23:02] Karen: And, um, it was, it's Tim

[00:23:04] Rachel: I was going to say it's five bullet Fridays,

[00:23:06] Karen: Yeah, five bullet Fridays, Tim Ferriss, and I'm like, well, he probably he's more accomplished than me. He probably has a big PR team. They told him five. And so I did, I do five ally actions every Friday because of Tim Ferriss. I will admit that. And there are many

[00:23:20] Felicia: so funny.

[00:23:22] Karen: There are many weeks when I wish that I had called it three ally actions because it's a lot to write, but

[00:23:30] Felicia: love it. We're getting all the, like the real stuff here on this podcast. Well, cause I was just laughing earlier to myself when you were sharing about the mistakes and learning from them. Cause what I wanted to say is maybe in your mind, you're like, this is great. I have stuff for the newsletter now.

[00:23:46] Felicia: Awesome.

[00:23:47] Karen: Absolutely.

[00:23:48] Felicia: what a fun way to reframe, you know, making mistakes and learning from them. Because I will say, like, I think to your point, it takes a certain level of humility, right? To share that you do make mistakes. And it's something we say all the time where we're like, we're human beings. We're going to make mistakes.

[00:24:03] Felicia: You know, a mess up, like it happens. No one's perfect, but you could also very well be somebody who was like, Oh, I made a mistake, but I have to be perfect because I'm telling everyone else how to do this work. So I think it's, it's great that you're able to share that with others. 

[00:24:18] Karen: Well and even a level above what you've just shared, Felicia, is I need to role model being wrong. I need to role model that this is how you recover from these mistakes. I need to role model how to be vulnerable on this topic because no one can really know it all. Really. I mean, no one. So I'm hope, I hope I'm doing that as well.

[00:24:40] Karen: Um, and by the way, five ally actions at some point earlier this year, I had the amazing idea of. Why don't I use the fifth ally action every week to be something that a community member has sent to me of how they are a better ally. Maybe something they've learned from me, they've put into practice, something else they've done.

[00:24:58] Karen: So people send me lots of ideas and every Friday now I feature one of them as the fifth bullet. So at least now I'm only writing four

[00:25:06] Rachel: I love that. So that is so genius. Then you get community involvement too. So win win.

[00:25:11] Karen: Win win, and I get to learn from them as well as my whole subscriber list. So anyway, what are some mistakes? Let's get real here. Okay, let's get real. Um,

[00:25:21] Felicia: it.

[00:25:21] Karen: okay. A lot of my learning has been around accessibility and not being ableist in my language and what I am doing. One example and this, these are going to highlight how easy it is to be a better ally once you know. I used to put in my writing, anything that I was quoting, like a block quote from another author or something. I put it in italics. I learned at some point, I don't know, that that was a way to signal that it is a quote.

[00:25:50] Karen: And I've since learned that large blocks of italics can be hard for some people to read. It's a legibility issue. So I don't do that anymore. Another thing is language, ableist language. In my book, Better Allies, I do talk about a story of, I was coaching some women and I used the phrase who did not want to handicap their career.

[00:26:14] Karen: So they did this handicap their career by using the word handicap in a way that denotes something negative, it's not respectful to people who are living with handicaps who have handicaps. So, Again, I'm learning to be careful, be mindful of the language I use so that it is not insensitive and is not not inclusive I think that's what I meant to say there. 

[00:26:37] Rachel: You mentioned such a good point around language because I think that's one of the most difficult things because it's constantly evolving. We are always learning too. And it's just, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, your initial reaction when you hear a new thing is almost like, oh my gosh, really? Another thing? like, yes, another thing. That is correct. That is the way we're going to move forward.

[00:27:00] Karen: I felt that way a little irritated. I will admit a little irritated with someone pointed out I shouldn't use the phrase analysis paralysis. That's one of those phrases I've used my whole professional career. It is so evocative of what we're talking about of people just like can't getting past the analysis and get in making a decision.

[00:27:22] Karen: And someone pointed out it's ableist towards people who are actually paralyzed. So first I was like, really? And then it's like, wait a second. I am not living with that disability. I don't know what it is like. I need to respect someone who's giving me that feedback. Um, so I'm trying to just change, change that up too.

[00:27:40] Karen: Anyway, we could talk about language forever, but I think Rachel, your point is, Language is rich and evolves all the time, not just about DEI topics, it's just, it's evolving all the time. Our dictionaries add new terms and phrases every year. And so we need to be mindful and move forward too, definitely.

[00:28:00] Felicia: Yeah, and I think both of you bring up really good points is You know, in a sense that it does change and we have to be receptive to that and highlighting what you shared earlier, Karen, around being open to listening and being guided by folks who are directly impacted. And then, you know, what you shared to Rachel around like that initial gut feeling, which I think we can all say we've shared like, Oh my God, another thing to keep in mind.

[00:28:24] Felicia: And I'll share just my own little thing that happened recently. I don't think it was. Karen, although if it was let me know, but I think it was on LinkedIn. I read somewhere just the other day how using the term stakeholder is another one that we should think about replacing. So instead of saying stakeholder, we should think about perhaps saying key collaborator because, I'll just fully admit, I don't know a ton.

[00:28:47] Felicia: I haven't done a lot of my own research or reading around this, but my understanding is that the reason is that it could be a stakeholder could be offensive to indigenous folks because first of this process of people of colonizers coming in and claiming land for their own. So I saw that and I was like, oh, had no idea. Right? I'm not directly a member of an indigenous group or someone who is aware of this. And I first was like, oh, another thing to think about. But I also think it's a great opportunity to reframe how we think about it where it's like, oh, we're learning so much more. Right. Or, oh I'm getting to support someone else better.

[00:29:23] Felicia: To me, it just speaks to the duality of, yes, the work is hard and the work is easy, because the things are easy, but we've learned it so deeply, so the feeling is about, uh, we have to unlearn

[00:29:38] Karen: Unlearn.

[00:29:39] Felicia: to us,

[00:29:40] Karen: Unlearn can be hard. Yes. Yeah. And Felicia, that wasn't my newsletter. So I will let you know that I did explore it in my newsletter, but the only reason I did that is because a newsletter subscriber sent me an email and said, Hey, I just learned about the use of stakeholder, and how it cannot be inclusive.

[00:29:56] Karen: So I love that. I love that

[00:29:57] Felicia: Well, and I love that it was in your newsletter because it just goes to show for anyone listening how amazing and valuable the newsletter is because I had never known that until I read it.

[00:30:07] Karen: Well, me neither. Like, I didn't know until someone told me. There's a quote by Maya Angelou, who said. And I'm going to get it roughly right, but you know, we do the best we can until we know better. And when we know better, we do better. And with language, that is the theme, the theme of the day. All right. You want to hear some more mistakes though, beyond language.

[00:30:25] Felicia: Sure. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Learning opportunities.

[00:30:30] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:30:31] Karen: Okay. Um, one of the best practices I put in my book and I put in my newsletter, I address this a lot is be conscious of major religious holidays when you are scheduling events. Okay. So that's a best practice and you're both nodding your head. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. And, um, here's what happened. I think it was about three years ago, I accepted. An invitation to speak at a live webinar on a day and I put it in my newsletter to invite people to come like this free live webinars happening about Better Allies on this day. And someone wrote to me, you realize that's on Rosh Hashanah.

[00:31:10] Karen: I'm like, nope, I did not realize it. So there's another mistake, even with the best intentions. I messed up there by accepting that that webinar invitation I could have asked can we move it to another day. I'm not Jewish, it wasn't on my calendar. And I know Inclusion Geeks you have a DEI calendar that has these kinds of dates that people can come to your website, download it and everything.

[00:31:35] Karen: That's a great resource. So I try to be more mindful of other religions that I'm not a part of, that I want to make sure that I'm not scheduling major events on, or that my clients aren't either. You know, I have clients who are like, well, could you come in and talk on this day? I'm like, well, do you realize that that is, whatever it might be. I try to bring that up so that they can be inclusive as well.

[00:31:56] Rachel: Well, thanks for the plug, by

[00:31:58] Felicia: Yeah, I was like, that's so kind of you. And yes, we, we do have a calendar on our website that people can check out. I have a follow up question for you, but have you ever had a conversation with a client or a prospective client where they've said, Hey, could you do this thing on this date?

[00:32:10] Felicia: You say, Oh, FYI, that's on a holiday, or there was some issue around that, that maybe we don't want to, you know, schedule on that day. And then they come back to you and they say, We're doing it anyway. Do you want to do this? 

[00:32:23] Karen: It has not, um, I could imagine though, if it is an internal event and it's a small company or firm and they know what their policies are and what, whatever, like they know their employee population and demographics, I have to rely on them to know their audience more than I know their audience.

[00:32:41] Karen: My job is to bring this up, but I don't feel I'm in a position to insist, especially if it's an internal event, external might be another story. Like there's some conference going on. Next week. I don't remember which conference it is, but a major. And so for people listening right now, we are recording this podcast on October 31st, Halloween, the U S election is coming up in just, you know, small number of days

[00:33:07] Rachel: What? I haven't heard. Just kidding. Go on.

[00:33:12] Karen: but the point is that there is a major conference happening next week. So people who have to vote in person and don't have that ability to vote by mail, they can't go to the conference if they want to vote. I mean, it's just like, who, who did that? I don't know. Anyway.

[00:33:29] Rachel: can't we say what the conference is? I want

[00:33:31] Felicia: I mean, we can say whatever. It's our podcast. Who cares? It's,

[00:33:33] Karen: I can't remember. So Felicia

[00:33:35] Felicia: I will tell you so, cause I posted about this on LinkedIn. So it's, it's the SHRM inclusion conference.

[00:33:41] Rachel: it. Stop it. SHRM, once again,

[00:33:46] Rachel: Come on, SHRM. Get it together. You have one job. Treat humans well. Actually, that's not their job. Their job is to make sure companies don't get into legal trouble. But that's okay. Um,

[00:33:58] Karen: love the snark that you two bring to this job. 

[00:34:00] Rachel: We feel very safe on our podcast To say a lot of things.

[00:34:05] Felicia: I also feel like no one from SHRM is listening to

[00:34:07] Rachel: no one from SHRM this. 

[00:34:09] Felicia: What I will say to what you bringing up Karen around the scheduling idea is like, that's a great example of the interplay between individual allyship and then organizational and institutional allyship, because there is a person or a group of people who planned these dates.

[00:34:25] Felicia: Right. And they probably planned it at least a year in advance because these conferences are planned so far in advance. And so at this conference next week, they're going to announce the dates for next year. So they already know the dates. They also know that the election is happening. So like whoever is in this planning mode, if, for some reason they didn't know that would really make me question them because that's something that I can't fathom how you wouldn't factor that into your planning.

[00:34:51] Felicia: So then we know there's a choice but then there's also an institutional choice because the institution of SHRM in this case is saying we're okay with this and it's fine and we don't care or we don't know or we don't, we're not thinking about if our people are voting in person or not or whatever.

[00:35:07] Felicia: Right. So that's, I think, such an interesting and important point to just bring up again, because we are people, we make up our organizations, but also the organization, while it's not a person, has a viewpoint and approach and there's policies and there's things like that. So I'm sure that comes up for you a lot in your ally actions as well, where it's not just about me or you.

[00:35:29] Felicia: It's also about a larger picture too, right?

[00:35:32] Karen: Absolutely. One more thing about conferences too, Educause, which is a nonprofit that focuses on higher education and especially a lot of focus on it in higher education, but higher education best practices. And. They held their conference in San Antonio, I believe last week or two weeks ago.

[00:35:50] Karen: And someone posted about their learnings from the conference and also acknowledged that there might have been pregnant people who wanted to go to the conference, who decided against it because of healthcare concerns. So, gosh, things are messed up out there. Um, so anyway, we need to be thinking about location as well.

[00:36:10] Felicia: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:11] Rachel: point. Karen, we could hear about all your mistakes all day long, but we have a really important question to get to, which is related to all of this, which is, as we all know, DEI is not in favor these days, and I'm just, we're both very curious to know if you have been experiencing any backlash, and if so, how is that manifested, and how are you dealing with it?

[00:36:37] Karen: Yeah. Yeah. So first of all. Yes, D. E. I. Is experiencing some backlash. I want to point out that a lot of what we read in the media is overblown, and I've had it. Examples about like just headlines. John Deere Eliminates or slashes it's DEI programs when in reality, they pulled back on a few things, not saying that that was the right decision, but a few things like sponsoring external parades, like pride events and a few other things.

[00:37:12] Karen: I've spoken to people inside of John Deere and they have told me, Oh, Karen, we still have an incredible focus and a strong focus on getting more women and people of color into leadership roles. So inside, they're still focused. There are key metrics that they're being tracked. They are still working towards that.

[00:37:29] Karen: But they had to give a few things up because of activist investors, especially one guy, Robby Starbuck, who, however, he threatens companies, um, it's effective and people are making amends and listening to him and making some changes. But the press has taken it way out of proportion because it's click worthy, right?

[00:37:50] Karen: It's going to make people pay attention. So I'm frustrated about how small changes are being blown out of proportion. I will share with you. My speaking business is definitely slower this year. It has pulled back. Um, I'd be curious to know what your experience is like to. Every person who speaks on inclusion and diversity that I know has said the same thing, that the speaking businesses is slower.

[00:38:14] Karen: But at the same time, and this is kind of an optimist, I will admit. At the same time, my newsletter audience is growing. It's growing a lot. And what that tells me is that people need and want to know what they personally can do, even though there might be institutional pullback, that there might be activist investors stirring things up, that there might be politicians who are making noise about this, that there might, and are state laws that are preventing some of this work from proceeding people, individuals who are good people, and there's so many of them out there. They want to know what can I personally do? And that's my message. Here are the things you can take control of and start working towards. So it gives me hope to see my newsletter still growing and I'm hopeful I've been around in industry for so long. There are cycles. There are highs and lows for every industry. I saw it in tech so many times and I'm hopeful that 2025 for DEI is going to be a whole lot different than 2024.

[00:39:17] Rachel: You're your mouth to whoever's listening ears. We've certainly seen a significant pull back in our client work. Just the budgets are getting cut. There's a lot of anxiety. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the election. And then. Karen, I don't know if you know, we also, well, we did have the other side of our business, which was community for women.

[00:39:38] Rachel: And so what that looked like was companies would sponsor these events and women would attend these networking events. And it was win win for everyone. And those went away. And it wasn't just us, women in tech and girls who code shut down. There are other organizations that have seen a significant pullback when it comes to equality and equity.

[00:40:01] Rachel: And so I love your optimism. I think Felicia and I, depending on the day, we can be very optimistic. Catching me on a little bit of a, Pessimistic day, but you know, that's probably because it's a scary day. I don't know. It's Halloween. But it is interesting to, to see this, this shift. And I do wonder if maybe more of this work, too, is happening internally versus hiring folks externally,

[00:40:25] Karen: potentially, and we need to acknowledge the economic situation that we're in. We are not in a huge growth period right now. So there have been economic reasons for things being cut and pulled back. And so unfortunately, you know, we both have, all three of us have seen that, your company and mine.

[00:40:43] Rachel: Well, I will say just on the whole, like the economy business, I will say that CEOs are making more money than they ever have and seeing record profits. So I just, I lovingly honor that maybe companies just priorities are shifting a little bit to their own wallets for fear of some sort of a pullback.

[00:41:04] Rachel: Um, maybe they're doing the, the rainy day fund approach with the election. And so maybe the purse strings will open up a little bit more, but I just wanted to honor the fact these companies are doing just fine. Are you doing all

[00:41:17] Karen: are.

[00:41:18] Felicia: Well, what I wanted to ask you about, Karen, was like where you see the broader idea of allyship evolving. And I think you've sort of already kind of worked into this a little bit already, because what I do think is interesting is you sharing how your newsletter audience is growing, even though like maybe the speaking engagements are going down.

[00:41:36] Felicia: And I think that speaks to this shift of, okay, companies, whether they're doing great or not, discussion for different group of people, maybe, but, or a different time, but whether they're doing well or not. Companies are not investing in groups and people and work like this the way that they used to.

[00:41:51] Felicia: And my hope, as I think we all share is that this will be, we're in like the downturn of a hopefully huge, nice upward swing coming our way, hopefully soon. But you know, it's been also especially wild because I think that given the last four years since we last chatted, it was such a societal shift where there was this pressure because of George Floyd's murder and other folks as well and Black Lives Matter movement and the pandemic and our attention was all focused in different areas. And not to say that we wouldn't have seen growth in the DEI space without that, because I think we were certainly seeing that it was growing even before 2020, but that just exploded it into this whole other stratosphere.

[00:42:32] Felicia: But now we're sort of correcting, right? It feels like a course correction. And I think a lot of companies are doing that. Taking it almost to the extreme. So that's why it feels so wild, but with you and your newsletter, you're seeing that people are still wanting this. And that to me gives a lot of hope because as I said before, ultimately companies are made up of people.

[00:42:52] Felicia: So we have to start somewhere, but all that to be said, I want to hear from you. So given all that, do you, or how do you see this idea of allyship in and of itself evolving in the future? Or do you have thoughts around that?

[00:43:04] Karen: Yeah. So let's face it. Our society is very divided. Our country is divided. Other countries around the world also have this division of, of people, of society. If we think about DEI specifically, it's about Making equitable workplaces for people who are from backgrounds who traditionally have been overlooked minority backgrounds, um, yet allyship, some of the principles also can be utilized in a divided society to bring a society together. And oh my gosh, that as I say these words out loud, I'm, I'm kind of like having a little imposter syndrome here because like, wait, who am I to be predicting all of this, but

[00:43:50] Felicia: someone who's been doing this work for a long time. Don't imposter syndrome yourself out of this. Let us be the allies for you.

[00:43:56] Rachel: Yes.

[00:43:57] Karen: thank you. I think, well, let me give you, but it just seems like, cause I, I can focus on the workplace and that feels like my, my kind of comfort zone. It's like, that's my jam. That's where I worked. That's what I get. That's what I can write and talk about. When I start thinking about society in general, it feels a little bit scarier.

[00:44:14] Karen: And that was where the imposter, but I appreciate your support both of you. But let me give you an example of what I mean to just make it tangible. And one of a principle strategy or approach that I am a huge supporter of, and I use it all the time myself is be curious, not furious. When someone says something or does something that might make you a little peed off instead of letting the furious part of your brain kick in instead, be curious about what made them say that or do that, what's going on in their life, what's their background, what's happening? It's a real powerful approach for allyship. I had the opportunity. And again, I'm going to sound like I got this all figured out. I don't, it's just, it's one day I did have it figured out. I was at church and this was about two months ago. And, um, there was a local political candidate who came to our church and was Introducing herself to various members of the congregation beforehand, and she came over to my husband and myself and handed us her business cards that I'm so and so I'm running for office in your city.

[00:45:21] Karen: And. I looked at her business card and there was no party affiliation. So I said, well, what, what's your party affiliation? And she said, Republican. Now, given the work I do, it's probably no surprise that I am a Democrat. So I literally handed the card back to her. And I said, I won't be voting for you. I was just like very clear.

[00:45:40] Karen: And then in the split second that happened next, I thought to myself, Karen, be curious, not furious, be a better ally. And so I did say to her, But I would like to understand why you are a Republican. What is the most important thing about the Republican platform that resonates with you?

[00:45:58] Karen: And she then went on to talk to me about the economy and her concerns and everything. So that's an example of this allyship work, the strategies we apply to allyship in the workplace. Gosh, wouldn't it be great if we all could have that kind of connection with people that we feel very divided from? So that's an example. Another example of a strategy, a principle from allyship, something else I do all the time, seek common ground and educate. Seek common ground and educate is an amazing strategy to draw people into a conversation to do things like, Hey, I used to say analysis paralysis all the time, too.

[00:46:36] Karen: But I have since learned that it's not inclusive for these reasons. That's another thing that we can do in terms of when we meet people who are different from us, though, that we feeling that divide. Are there things that we actually have in common that we can talk about? And last but not least, I'll just say one other principle is we need to believe other people.

[00:46:58] Karen: Even if we have not experienced what they're saying ourselves, we need to believe that when they are sharing something that happened to them or something that's important to them, that just because that's not our world doesn't mean it can't be truth. And we need to understand that, listen to it, explore it, be open to understanding that that's their truth.

[00:47:17] Karen: So those are just some ways that I'm hopeful that allyship might evolve to help our society at large.

[00:47:27] Rachel: Karen, I think that that is absolutely the only way forward is what you described. I think be curious, not furious really resonates, as I sit here in judgment of so many other people, I really appreciate that, on a personal note. So thank you for sharing that. No need for imposter syndrome at all. Besides your own incredible books, what other resources you'd recommend for others wanting to dive deeper into this topic? 

[00:47:54] Karen: So there are many books out there. When I first was working on Better Allies, my book, I talked to a few other authors and I remember telling them, I was like, we need a whole bookshelf of books on allyship. Just like there are whole libraries on leadership, different voices, stories, techniques, stuff.

[00:48:11] Karen: We need the same thing for allyship. So there are some amazing books out there. I'll mention just a few that have been incredibly helpful to me and understanding allyship. Um, and they're kind of in there because they, they focus on specific groups, specific identities who are marginalized. So LGBTQ plus allyship, my go to is The Savvy Ally by Jeannie Gainsburg. She's amazing, has an amazing book and she's funny too. It's, it's, she's a good one. Then for ableism and supporting people who are living with disabilities and being an ally for them. Tiffany,Yu just came out with a new book and her title is The Anti Ableist Manifesto. It's just incredible, and she's a disabled person herself. For allyship specifically around gender and supporting women, David Smith and Brad Johnson's book, Good Guys. They are two good guys themselves who write about how men should really be showing up as allies. The fourth book and this will be the last one I mentioned is just sort of the general call to allyship. The general call to get involved with this work, I would say is The Wake Up by Michelle MiJung Kim. That book, the stories that Michelle shares, and the advice she has given in her book have really helped me learn about allyship myself. And then not, not in the book arena, but just on social media, I'm finding, and maybe this is just my evolution, I'm really trying to understand people how to be a better ally for people with disabilities.

[00:49:42] Karen: That's just a huge focus of mine right now. And on Instagram, there are so many great accounts of people who are sharing their experience, navigating life as a wheelchair user or as a blind person and so forth. So I won't go through all the the names of all of these great accounts I follow. I don't think I could tell you all the names cause there's a lot of them, but I'm trying to be mindful of learning more about that community, and Instagram is just a fun place with videos that people share and I get to learn a lot.

[00:50:09] Felicia: Well, I love that you said that, because, we of course talk and teach about topics like allyship, and one of the recommendations that we give our clients is to make sure that our social media feeds represent viewpoints or people who don't all just look like us or think like us. And so I think that's a really easy way to actually start to practice allyship is by leaning into that idea of like, okay, I may not understand someone else's experience, but what I can do is I can follow them on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or whatever other threads, whatever, other social media platform is going to be out there in the future.

[00:50:48] Felicia: Because I do the same thing and I have a ton of people that I like to follow from different backgrounds and identity groups because I want to just get a sense of what they're talking and thinking and posting about because I may understand some of it and I may not but it's about just it's a really easy way to just have it built into daily life so it doesn't feel like a chore you know like we're not sitting down and saying like okay, time to learn on Instagram, just you're scrolling through and you're like, Oh, I'm looking at Tiffany's TikTok feed and she's talking about this thing and lobbying at Congress didn't know this thing existed.

[00:51:25] Felicia: Let me learn more about it. Right. So it's those little micro moments that can be so, so helpful. So I love that you shared that. 

[00:51:32] Karen: Oh, I love that. You're doing that too. And that you advise that to clients in your teaching. Definitely.

[00:51:36] Felicia: We could probably talk about all these specifics and mistakes and ideas and all that good stuff all day long. But what I want to know from you, Karen, in terms of switching gears a little bit is what are you looking forward to in the next year? What's next for you?

[00:51:49] Karen: So my husband and I, we always on New Year's Eve, we'll always talk about what's your, what are your resolutions? We never write them down or never get very serious, but it's just like a thing you should do on New Year's. Right. And last year he's like, so you're going to write another book. I'm like, that is not, that's my anti new year's resolution is no more

[00:52:06] Felicia: You're like, my resolution is to not write a book. Thank you very much.

[00:52:10] Karen: Well, um, I failed that. Actually, it was two years ago I made that resolution. I failed that. I did publish a book last year. This year I have not published a book. So this is good. I think I don't have an, well, you never say never. Once you write a book, you say I'm never writing another one.

[00:52:24] Karen: And then look before you know it, you have five books published or something. So I don't think I'm writing another book. I'm looking forward to not writing another book. There we go. I am having so much fun learning more about AI and how to effectively use it in my work. I'm a huge fan right now of notebook LM from Google. I have uploaded all of my books, all of my newsletters, which I've been sending out my newsletter for six years, I have so much writing. And for me now to have conversations with my body of published work. It's a language model trained on my stuff that I can then use to find out where I've talked about this before written about this before.

[00:53:06] Karen: An example of that is, I thought I had written something about. supporting veterans in the past. And I just couldn't remember where it was. And so I just asked my notebook LMS, like, what have I written about, about supporting veterans? And it pointed me right to the source and suggested a summary of what I'd said before.

[00:53:23] Karen: So that's a huge, fun thing for me. I also recently did a faux podcast. I don't know if you've seen this capability from notebook LM, but had them do it for

[00:53:34] Felicia: a bit intriguing.

[00:53:36] Karen: creepy is a good word. It also makes me in awe of the technology. I am in awe of how that is accomplished. Basically, for people who don't know, you can point notebook LM at some sources or a single source and then have it create an audio overview. And it sounds like two podcasters, they sound like humans talking about your book, riffing on it, having a conversation. I'm not going to do that again. It was a pilot. I love running pilots and I got some feedback that some of it was positive, some negative and some people just pointing out some things I really should think about more deeply. Like, Hey, Karen, if that's an AI, then is your whole newsletter and AI, like, who can we trust here and so forth. So I'm, I'm being mindful about that. I'm also trying to make sure that I am not serving up AI slop. , there's a lot of slop being served up right now. And I feel like I get comments on social media that someone must've just put something into AI and just had that AI create something to respond to me just to generate some traffic. Um, and silly. Um, so I want to make sure I'm using it as a tool to make me more productive, but I'm not going to be delivering any slop.

[00:54:47] Rachel: I love that and I feel like this is a related question because our final question that we love to ask is what are you currently geeking out about? And it sounds like AI might be the answer. 

[00:54:55] Karen: I think that is the answer. I'm trying to do more video myself and I don't know if that's a geeky thing or just a social media thing, but I had very little videos. I wasn't doing reels like six months ago. And finally about the fourth PR expert who told me, Karen, you need to be doing reels.

[00:55:13] Karen: I finally got on, on the program there, 

[00:55:15] Felicia: is there anything else that you'd like to leave us or our audience with as far as like takeaways or, um, even just where can people learn more if they want to read one of your books or subscribe to the newsletter or learn more about the work that you're doing?

[00:55:30] Karen: Yeah. So big thing here. And I hope that people who have stuck with us, this whole podcast episode is realizing that being an ally is a journey. No one knows it all. Everyone is at different points of that journey. And we need to just keep learning and stepping forward. So I hope that you're more interested in learning about allyship than you were before.

[00:55:50] Karen: If that's the case, you can find me at Better Allies. com. There was information about my books as well as my newsletter and other free resources there that you can check out. So I hope you'll join me on the journey to be a better ally.

[00:56:06] Rachel: Thank you so much,

[00:56:07] Felicia: Thanks, Karen.

[00:56:08] Karen: Thank you. This was so fun

[00:56:09] 

[00:56:11] Felicia: all right. Once again, thanks to Karen for catching up with us. Always a great time. And we really hope that you enjoyed listening to our interview as much as we enjoyed the conversation.

[00:56:23] Rachel: And as a reminder, this is our last episode of 2024. What a wild ride this year has been. I think the one takeaway that I have is that no one can predict anything. Um,

[00:56:36] Felicia: plans and God laughs.

[00:56:38] Rachel: Yeah, that is the truth. As speaking of plans, we do plan to be back. Oh gosh. Do we jinx ourselves to be back with a new season in 25?

[00:56:47] Rachel: Yeah, that's gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be great. We plan to be back with a new season in 2025. So stay tuned for more info once we're back from our break. And in the meantime, make sure you're subscribed to our newsletter at inclusiongeeks. com forward slash newsletter and to the pod. So you can listen to older episodes from our archive,

[00:57:05] Felicia: Thanks again for listening. Please don't forget rate, share, and subscribe. It really does make a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, this work. So if you're thinking, I don't know how to help support. Well, you can do a little rate, a little review. And go ahead, visit us on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn.

[00:57:24] Felicia: Um, we may be on other platforms. There's new ones popping up every day, but those are the main ones that run

[00:57:28] Rachel: blue sky, blue sky.

[00:57:30] Felicia: I'm on Blue Sky. We may be on Blue Sky. Personally, I'm on Blue Sky. Maybe Inclusion Geeks will be too. Inclusion Geeks is on Threads. So again, the world is just ever changing. So, um, we're out there.

[00:57:41] Felicia: Stay up to date on all things Inclusion Geeks. Stay geeky.

[00:57:44] Rachel: Bye.