Behind the Lens: Donuts and Directing with Huriyyah Muhammad

[00:00:06] Rachel: Well, hello, and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast brought to you by Inclusion Geeks. That's us. We geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work to make the world a better and brighter place. I'm Rachel.

[00:00:22] Felicia: I'm Felicia. Let's get into it. All right, Rachel, I want to talk to you today about workplace boundaries.

[00:00:32] Rachel: What a great time to do that since we're in mid September. People are back from their holidays and their summer vibes, and people are like, get me that report immediately, or some such nonsense.

[00:00:45] Felicia: That's how work works, right? At this point? Who knows . In all seriousness, it's an important topic because we've talked about this ourselves with, you know, various posts and blog posts and articles and stuff that we've put out there over the years. One of our, our most [00:01:00] famous ones is work is not your family, but I think that boundaries is something that we've been thinking about a lot because the reality is we are full speed ahead into a very important election season. And even if we were not in an election, in election season, there's always been this tension between how much do you share, how much do you not? How do you leave work at home when you may be working from home, and I think that in this sort of like new world of workplace culture that we're dealing with, it's sometimes a real struggle to figure out Where do you put those boundaries in place?

[00:01:40] And I'll just speak for myself personally. I know that I have struggled a bit over the years through no fault of anyone's except for my own to put my own boundaries in place. Because what I learned from a lot of therapy mostly is that I can't expect other people to enforce my boundaries that I am asking for.

[00:01:59] I'm [00:02:00] curious what you think about putting boundaries in place in times like this when a lot of people are being asked to bring their full authentic selves to work or you're zooming in from your personal space and people can see your laundry and your cats and your kids and stuff like that going on?

[00:02:20] Rachel: You know, I think it's really hard for people like you and me to set and enforce boundaries because we are so open. I think we also come from a place of like, we want to please people and I think that It's because we index toward that, it's doubly important for us to do it, and it's getting out of our comfort zone to do it, but it is so important, and I will share for us, we are in a place where we've been working together for so many years, and we have folks that are amazing that That help us out.

[00:02:53] And sometimes it's really hard for us to get out of the weeds and to say, okay, we're going to have someone else do [00:03:00] something for us. So that's, that's a little separate from what you were specifically talking about as far as the authentic self piece. But I think this is an important piece as well, letting go and, and having folks and setting those boundaries to say, okay, I need to, in order to do this, to do X, Y, Z, I really need to set this boundary.

[00:03:17] So I'm going to have someone else do their job. I'm not going to encroach upon their tasks. To your original question as far as setting personal boundaries, you know, I think that is really so situational and it's so tricky because whether that is the boundary setting between like an employer and employee, or between coworkers who maybe have differing opinions and thoughts, it can be really tricky to just say, okay, we're going to focus on work here and not have this for the personal life be a distraction. I am not giving you a clear answer because I think it's actually, I think it's really messy [00:04:00] and situational. And I will just say, I think the most important thing is to just think about what is going to make the most sense for you to both get your work done, to create that space where you have your own space as well, and you can do your own thing, like outside of work, right? And really try to create that separation.

[00:04:23] Felicia: Yeah, you're right. It is. It is complicated. It is messy. I mean, that's like literally everything that we talk about in the world, but you know, I think it's important to note, too that there's just been such an emphasis over the last couple years of bring your full authentic self to work, but then there's a flip side of it, which is where I think this idea of boundaries and its place and boundary setting really comes into play, which is how do you take care of yourself professionally as well as personally when maybe your colleagues may not agree with you and they're bringing their full authentic self to work and you're like, this is fundamentally like we are in opposition [00:05:00] or it's harmful, right?

[00:05:02] Or you don't share the same values or it's dangerous. Whatever level that might look like and a lot of times in the workplace that tends to be more of like a job security, psychological safety type of danger, but of course, not always, it could be dangerous for you to put a boundary in place or not, depending on the circumstance.

[00:05:21] And I think that we're going to be seeing a lot more of this conversation come up because you shared actually a really great article the other day, and I'm totally blanking on the source or the title, but it was essentially about Millennials and Gen Z and how they're choosing to work at companies that share their values, and that's becoming much more of a thing.

[00:05:43] Think that's so important to note because that's the reality, right? And you and I were talking about it and I forget who said it, but one of us had something like, well, yeah, because why would you want to work for a company that doesn't believe you should be in existence as a human being if you [00:06:00] have certain identities, right? And it's even more complicated because the job market is not amazing. And so for a lot of folks, you're like, Hey, I need this job. So that's my caveat. So anyway, it's all that sort of like swirling around related to this topic, I think.

[00:06:16] Rachel: Yeah. And I think as we get closer and closer to the election and these conversations come up and there is this, you know, denial of certain people's humanity, right? Exactly what you were talking about, what are people doing? I think that there was a time not too long ago where there was a lot of pressure put on companies to really espouse what their values are very publicly and let folks know. And I think we've seen a tremendous pullback on that over the past, particularly six months, but I think it's been going on for longer than that.

[00:06:49] And I think that that will continue to happen. I don't know how this will all shake out, but it is so fraught right now. It is not like the [00:07:00] conversations we were having before around conservative and progressive ideals. It is in a way, but it's just so much more intense now than it was.

[00:07:10] And the new generation, you know, obviously there are folks in, And, um, newer generations that are on the conservative side, but by and large what we're seeing in all the numbers that it is tends to be more on the progressive side. And it's really going to be interesting to see how that shakes out in the workplace, because it really is difficult to truly separate those conversations.

[00:07:33] As much as we may want to.

[00:07:35] Felicia: Yeah. Stay tuned. We'll be talking more about this. So we don't have all the answers, but we're thinking about it. So,

[00:07:43] Rachel: Yeah. And we encourage you to think about what kind of boundaries you need to set up in place, whether you are an employee, individual contributor, a people manager, a leader, what do you need to do in order to make sure that you are taking care of yourself? And if you are in a position of [00:08:00] power, how are you also supporting the other folks that are on your team?

[00:08:04] Felicia: I will say before we transition into introducing our guest for today, I will say one boundary that you are really good at setting for yourself, slash us, the team that I really admire is that you don't have the notifications on your phone.

[00:08:20] Rachel: Oh yeah,

[00:08:21] Felicia: That's something that I struggle with. I think it's a helpful boundary to put in place for a mental capacity issue approach.

[00:08:28] I know that I go back and forth on having my Slack notifications and my work email notifications on my phone. So that's one example of a boundary that you might want to think about because Rachel's really good at it.

[00:08:40] Rachel: I love that boundary. Thanks. I appreciate

[00:08:45] Felicia: I appreciate you, but let's talk about someone else that we appreciated spending some time with, which is our guest today. Did you see what I did there?

[00:08:56] Rachel: That was very clever. Very clever.

[00:08:57] Felicia: All right. So for those of you who [00:09:00] are regular listeners, first of all, let us know because we'd love to hear from you. But secondly, if you listened to our last episode, you may notice that we have a little bit of a theme going on with our guest today. So our guest is Huriyyah Muhammad. She is also a writer, a director, and a producer.

[00:09:16] And she also came to us through her work on Ramadan America, the film. So we talked about Huriyyah's family, donuts, magical realism, and a lot more. 

[00:09:27] Rachel: And before we welcome Huriyyah, who is simply delightful, we want to share an exciting resource with you. Did you know that we offer a fantastic newsletter packed with the latest news, insights, and resources on workplace inclusion? I bet you didn't, but if you did, well, I'm telling you again. It is the best source for learning how to support a truly fair and inclusive work environment.

[00:09:47] So don't miss out. Sign up today at inclusiongeeks. com forward slash newsletter and stay informed and inspired. Welcome to the show, Huriyyah! 

[00:09:58] Felicia: [00:10:00] Welcome Huriyyah.

[00:10:02] Huriyyah: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:10:05] Felicia: So are we to have you on. So let's just get into it. You are a writer, a director, and a producer. Your projects have been invited to Sundance, Tribeca Film Institute, AFI Film Fest, Austin Film Festival, OutFest, NewFest, Real Sisters, American Black Film Festival. I'm running out of breath. You also went to Spelman for computer science.

[00:10:25] Very cool. And you got your MBA at NYU. I have to stop all the accolades and your bio, because it's just a lot and amazing. So let's start it off with. How about you tell us how you went from your origin story into film? What is that all about?

[00:10:42] Huriyyah: Yes, certainly. Well, thank you so much. Sometimes when I look at that bio, I'm like, wow, I have done a lot and it's, you know,

[00:10:50] Felicia: You should definitely think that and say

[00:10:52] Rachel: Correct. Yes.

[00:10:54] Felicia: impressive.

[00:10:55] Huriyyah: Yeah, it's true. I collect the um, the film festival like [00:11:00] a little, uh, what do you call those things where they give you when you go to a

[00:11:03] Rachel: Like a

[00:11:03] Felicia: Oh, like a

[00:11:04] Rachel: a lanyard.

[00:11:05] Huriyyah: I collect them all and I've been collecting them for like 20 years and it's just so amazing. One of these days, I'm gonna do a video and put it online of me putting them all out.

[00:11:16] But, my origin story, as you mentioned, I was a computer science major in undergrad. And the only reason I was a computer science major is because my mom told me if I did not major in a science, I was going to come home and go to Cleveland state. I wanted to major in English because I love books, I love the written word. I love

[00:11:33] Felicia: Same. Yes.

[00:11:35] Huriyyah: I would get into trouble all the time growing up because instead of doing chores, I had my head in a book, um, reading and just adventures. I always fashioned myself on being a novelist. And I was going to write the quote unquote, great American novel.

[00:11:49] But my mother was like, no, that you're not going to make any money. You're going to be impoverished, so you need to major in a science. And maybe she was right, but to make a long story short, I was working [00:12:00] in advertising because I hated computer science. When I graduated, I was, I ran in the complete opposite direction and I was really good at it.

[00:12:06] I was really good at because I was really good working with people. I really have a natural curiosity for people and I really just love leading people in different directions. I was watching television and I was like, somebody's writing this and it never occurred to me that I could write for television or write screenplays. I was still trying to write a novel, and I would get about 100 pages in and I would lose interest in those characters and I would start a new novel with different characters, different plot, different storyline. But then when I tried my hand at a script, I was like, wow, uh, I'm pretty good at this because it was right in line with my stamina as a writer.

[00:12:44] It's not even a whole page is the middle of the page. If you've ever seen a screenplay, it doesn't stretch across the whole page. Um, and, and they were really good. So I took a class a screenwriting class and the professor validated what I thought about the [00:13:00] writing. And I said, you know what? I'm going to move to L. A. and become a screenwriter. I owe that to Mara Brockacule, an amazing writer producer, and she had a show called Girlfriends, and it just inspired me. I quit my job. I cashed out my 401k. I sold everything I had that couldn't fit in my Ford Explorer. And I had my teddy bear, my plant that I had gotten from a Christmas party. What are those plants that, you know, the red leaves, they turn red and you get them every Christmas, they give them out for gifts

[00:13:31] Rachel: The

[00:13:31] Huriyyah: out. Yes, exactly.

[00:13:33] Rachel: I love it. We should be on password together. I feel like I'm ready.

[00:13:37] Huriyyah: yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I had my plan. I had Jay Z on the radio. I had Red Bull in this little thing in the console. And I just drove west five days to LA. I didn't know anybody in LA. I didn't know where I was going to live. I didn't know where I was going to work. I never been on a television set or a movie set before in my life, but I knew I was smart and I knew that I was going to figure it out. I got there and I said, [00:14:00] okay, I'm a great writer, but I don't know anything about movies.

[00:14:02] I don't know how they're made. So I have to get on set. I have to figure out how are movies made. So I answered an ad for a production assistant. And that's basically the lowest person on the totem pole. If somebody says, stand by that door and don't let anybody through that door. That's what you do.

[00:14:17] If they say go and do a Starbucks run, that's what you do. Drive the talent around, that's what you do. So I answered an ad for production assistant. And first of all, even before I got there, the address was on Crenshaw. And I was so scared because I'd never been to LA.

[00:14:32] And the only thing I knew about Crenshaw was boys in the hood. And I was like, Oh my. God, this is Crenshaw. Somebody's gonna jack my car. It's gonna be a shootout. I'm gonna get be in the middle between the Bloods and the Crips. I mean, and I just

[00:14:46] Felicia: Oh my God. Sorry.

[00:14:48] Huriyyah: And

[00:14:48] Felicia: You are like painting the screenplay of your life right now. I can see

[00:14:52] Huriyyah: yeah, I was writing a movie.

[00:14:53] I was writing that whole movie that ended in my untimely demise. But as I was [00:15:00] driving, I was gripping the steering wheel so hard that my knuckles literally were turning white. And, but as I'm driving, I'm noticing the grass is so green, and manicured lawns, and older people walking their dogs, and these huge homes that are like pristine.

[00:15:16] And I'm like, this neighborhood looks really nice. And then I get to the address and it was a house and everybody has their production office in their house. And so the door was wide open. I walked in, I followed the voices and it was a meeting that was happening. Three men sitting around the kitchen table.

[00:15:31] It was the director, the cinematographer and an executive producer slash actor. And they didn't even acknowledge me. They didn't look my way. I sat down at the table and I just started listening to the meeting and they said, we need this, we need that. And then one of them said, we need a script supervisor.

[00:15:46] And I said, I can do that. And then they all turned and looked at me finally. And they were like, you could do that. I was like, I didn't know what a script supervisor was. I didn't know what a script person did. [00:16:00] I had no idea, but I knew that I was going to figure it out. 

[00:16:04] Rachel: I was like, you're giving some high male energy right now and I am here for it.

[00:16:09] Felicia: loving everything that is coming out of your mouth

[00:16:11] Huriyyah: yeah. So I got promoted right there on a spot from a, from a production assistant to a script supervisor. But once I got on that set, I realized that they needed so much help. They needed a producer. And I didn't know what a producer was exactly in terms of a film producer. But I knew that you had to tell people what time they have to show up.

[00:16:31] You have to feed people. You have to be organized. You have to like, let people know what the plan is. And that's what I had been doing really in advertising. I was an account supervisor and I was managing the client and I was managing a different department, the agency departments, and we were making television and advertising campaigns.

[00:16:49] So all of those skills were directly transferable to producing. And I didn't move out to Los Angeles to become a producer, but, I kind of fell into it, realizing that I had [00:17:00] really great leadership skills, really great people skills. I had these management skills that I had honed over the years working in advertising and I started independent producing and that was my film school.

[00:17:11] I never went to film school a day in my life, but it really was somebody had money, we were producing films around the 500, 000. And it would be an actor who their television show got canceled and now they wanted to be a film star. So they would put their own money and they would find some other money and we would find a script and we would produce that script.

[00:17:33] And I did that for about four or five years, just getting better and better and better at it and expanding my network. And then the housing market crash hit. And at the time, also, my mom was sick and I moved back to the East Coast to help take care of my mom.

[00:17:48] And nobody was investing in films at that time anyway. So then my mom passed and I was like, what am I going to do? Am I going to go back to LA? Am I going to stay in on the East coast? And I said, you know what? I've always been interested in school. So I went to [00:18:00] business school because I was really interested in business.

[00:18:02] I knew I had a production company. I wanted to grow my production company. And I think Rachel, you said, I heard on a podcast, you said that nothing you learned in business school helped you with this business, but it was great networking.

[00:18:16] Felicia: That was, that was me. Um, even though Rachel and I share a brain. So I feel like Rachel,

[00:18:21] Rachel: I never went to,

[00:18:21] Felicia: school, 

[00:18:22] you would have probably said the same thing.

[00:18:24] Rachel: a hundred percent. I knew it. I knew it without going to business school. So I was thinking the same thing, Huriyyah, what you were just saying is

[00:18:30] Felicia: I was, I was curious I want to hear what your business school experience was like, because in retrospect, I'm like, yeah, I didn't take any class that prepped me for what we're doing right now. So I guess it was good for networking.

[00:18:43] Huriyyah: you know, it was good for networking and also I just worked my ass off in business school and it also solidified for me that storytelling is what I really wanted to do because this whole time I was in business school. I was still making films. I didn't have time to make features anymore [00:19:00] because the rigors of the academics, but I started making shorts.

[00:19:04] And so that's why, a lot of times people look at my IMDB page and they're like, dang, you were, you were making features. And then you had a long stint where you started making shorts. What's that all about? And that's because I was in business school, but also I was working on the East coast and working in New York city.

[00:19:18] And I had never worked in film in New York city. And I was meeting so many amazing, talented actors and writers, directors, and really, it was just a different vibe, a different type of energy. And I really loved it. And then I met the person who was my creative collaborator to this day, Ekwa Msangi, and she asked me, I was graduated from business school, and she was like, okay, Huriyyah, will you produce this film for me?

[00:19:40] It was a short film. And I was like, Ekwa, I've been doing that for the past two years. I'm ready to start making features again. And, I don't know. And she said. Well, it's in Africa. It's in Nairobi. And I was like, Oh, man, sign me up because I always imagined that I would travel all over the world telling stories.

[00:19:57] And that was the beginning of a really [00:20:00] beautiful opportunity because she and I went on to make a film called Farewell Amour. That was at Sundance a couple of years ago in U. S. Dramatic Competition. She wrote and directed it. I produced it and I won a Sundance Creative Producing Award that year. And it took us probably about three years to get that film made.

[00:20:18] The pandemic hit and I was like, I want to go back to writing and directing and I feel like I'm talking a long time. So that's,

[00:20:24] Rachel: That's your job. That's why you're here.

[00:20:28] Felicia: literally what you're supposed to be doing right now.

[00:20:31] Huriyyah: In my industry, we have a lot of what's called generals where you meet somebody and they're like, well, tell me your story. And it's like, okay, do you want the hour long version? Do you want the 45 minute version? Is this the elevator pitch? You know what I'm saying? So you guys can tell me how long should this origin story be? You know,

[00:20:47] Rachel: it's a great question and honestly, we get all different sizes and shapes and it's part of what makes it kind of fun is hearing how different people want to interpret that question. And I think you've done a beautiful [00:21:00] job of sharing your story. It's really fascinating and inspiring to hear that you just make these bold moves. It's just wonderful to hear that. And I'm sorry about your mom, passing. Related to your parents, one of your latest projects is called Chocolate with Sprinkles.

[00:21:18] It's out. It won the HBO short film competition at the American Black Film Festival. Amazing. Congratulations. Um, this story is inspired by your parents marriage and their donut bakery, delicious, yum in Cleveland. What made you want to specifically tell this story?

[00:21:35] Huriyyah: Well, you know, everything I think that I have in my life that's really amazing, I think it goes back to my parents. I have such a really loving family today. And I think that's because my parents, like the way Geez, I didn't think I was going to start getting emotional about this, but, cause I talk about this film all the time, but, uh, you know, my parents, they just [00:22:00] gave us so much.

[00:22:00] I have seven brothers and sisters and my parents just sacrificed it all for us. And we all grew up watching them run this bakery. And we all worked in the bakery from the time that we were old enough to sweep flour. We were all working in this donut shop and they fussed all the time, you know, like they were always fussing with each other.

[00:22:19] And I, growing up, I used to be like, I wish they would just get a divorce and I'm going to live with mom because dad is never going to have food in his house. And everything will be everything then. Now that I'm an adult. I'm married. I have a child.

[00:22:36] I run my own business. I don't want to talk at the end of the night. Like, I want to go to sleep. Like, there is nothing that, like, and we'll figure it out tomorrow. And then the next day we'll figure it out the next day. And the next day. Because life just keeps coming fast and furious, but you gotta like, stop it.

[00:22:52] Actually talk about things and make sure you're okay and do the check ins. And my parents just weren't from that generation, I don't think, and just didn't do that. And [00:23:00] it just gave me a different perspective on their marriage. My dad passed in 2008 and my mom in 2009. And so when my mom passed, I was like, we all were like, are we going to bury them together?

[00:23:11] Should we bury them on opposite ends of the cemetery? Like my, my family, we're a little weird because we joke about everything. We could find humor in everything, you know? And so, uh, this story just kind of stuck with me. I kept thinking about this couple and them having an opportunity to actually not focus on the business, not focus on the kids, but actually just focus on each other and what that day would be like.

[00:23:34] And from there, Chocolate with Sprinkles was born. And I'm really thankful that people are feeling the heart of the story. And they're thinking about their parents and seeing their parents in a certain way. And that's why you make art.

[00:23:46] I've heard it said that art is mirrors and windows, you know. It's a mirror to reflect back to you, your own experience, but at the same time, it's a window into someone else's experience as well. And that has certainly been true with this film.[00:24:00] 

[00:24:01] Felicia: Yeah. I haven't had a chance to see it yet, but I'm excited because I don't know if you know this, Huriyyah, but my husband is a donut maker. And so the donut connection is real.

[00:24:11] Huriyyah: get out of here. No, I did not know that.

[00:24:13] Felicia: Yep. He's a, a mobile mini donut maker. Uh, so donuts are very much a part of my life and for better or for worse. What you just shared about your parents really struck me as well.

[00:24:24] There's a lot of similarities I can relate to. So I think that's such an interesting way of unpacking something that's obviously very personal, but using the medium of film to explore that. So I'm excited to watch this in the future.

[00:24:38] Huriyyah: And I did the film through a directing fellowship called the, uh, AFI's directing workshop for women. And that fellowship has been around for over 50 years. Folks like Maya Angelou, uh, To, the really amazing Neema Barnette, Hanelle Culpepper, who just directed the last episode of The Acolyte, went through that program, [00:25:00] Dime Davis, an Emmy award winning director, and just so many others who, Tessa Blake, just the list is like phenomenal.

[00:25:09] And I was really honored to actually go through that program also, and also it was like a little taste of film school. As I mentioned, I never went to film school. So I always in the back of my mind was like, well, maybe there's something that I'm missing, and it was so validating going through that initiative over the course of a year, because I was like, no, no, I'm a really amazing director.

[00:25:30] And , it really shows in this film. And I'm just really proud of it.

[00:25:35] Felicia: Well, it sounds like you're in good company and I'm glad that you got that validation because I think it's true. Like sometimes we're always thinking to ourselves, do we need that formal education, that formal, you know, systems or support, whatever it is. And sometimes we're already in it doing the work.

[00:25:48] So we're already past it, but your style has been described as featuring magical realism, which I love. So can you tell us a little bit more about what that actually means for you and why that style speaks to [00:26:00] you in terms of why are you using that in your work?

[00:26:03] Huriyyah: Yeah. For me, I love really, really grounded films, but just adding a little bit of, uh, uh, unnatural layer on top of them. Like for example, my film, Wonders. That film was about a couple that comes home and finds an eviction notice on their door. And I was thinking about at the time how the eviction or the rent moratorium was being lifted.

[00:26:25] And a lot of people. At the time, we're facing eviction notices coming out of the pandemic. I was living in Brooklyn at the time, and I saw this couple who were pushing these laundry baskets. And they had a little toddler on their hip. And I was like, man, it's hard, it's hard living in New York, you know, raising a kid and just doing all the things.

[00:26:44] And it got me thinking about this couple. And so they come home and they find this eviction notice on their door. And there's Worry, what are we going to do? How, where are we going to go? How are we going to pay this money that we owe? And that night their toddler poops, three gold nuggets.

[00:26:58] And so you [00:27:00] have this really serious situation, very grounded, but then you layer in this magical element. With Chocolate with Sprinkles, it's the same thing. You have this couple, it's their anniversary. They're having this terrible argument. And that's the last chance that they have on this earth, you know, but then they get another shot at it.

[00:27:20] So, I think that the reason that I really love playing in the realm of magical realism and fantasy and even sci fi is because I get to explore really heavy subjects like death, divorce, eviction, but just with a little bit of levity and a little bit of light heartedness and that's one reason. But the other reason is I really am a very spiritual person and I find that I can introduce that spirituality in my work through magical realism and through sci fi and fantasy without it being like a thing. With audiences being able to just enjoy it and not analyze, okay, do I think this, do I [00:28:00] not think this, et cetera.

[00:28:02] Rachel: I think that's so important, especially now where everything just does feel so heavy is to have a little bit of magic . I think a lot of times people go to film to escape. So it is really nice. Um, I have a lot of conversations with my husband of like, Oh, do we have to watch something that has death and dying in it?

[00:28:21] Can we just watch stuff blow up? That would be fine. So yeah, I appreciate that. Also, you're so busy, you, you also co founded the Black TV and Film Collective, which is a member nonprofit that's dedicated to developing and supporting the work of Black and African descent artists in TV and film.

[00:28:41] How did you, how'd you decide to start this project and how's it going? And how do you find the time? I'll just throw that in there too.

[00:28:48] Huriyyah: The Black TV and Film Collective started in 2017, I think it was, around that time. We're approaching our 10 year anniversary, so I guess it's [00:29:00] about 2014, but it was around the time of like #OscarsSoWhite, and I just was like what the heck #OscarsSOWhite, what is that going to do like this hashtag business, you know what I mean, and you know honestly it has done, what it's done, which is draw attention and create some momentum and all that kind of stuff. But I just was like, you know, we can do so much more by just helping one another and supporting one another and lifting as we climb and I never intended to start a nonprofit organization.

[00:29:30] It really was just me saying, Hey, I'm going to this event. Does anybody want to go with me? We started table reading each other's work and just little by little getting together and just sharing resources and sharing knowledge and sharing opportunities. And before you knew it, we just kept growing and growing and growing and it was a meetup group actually.

[00:29:51] And we just kept meeting up. And then we had almost a thousand meetup members. And I said, you know what, if we get to over a thousand before the end of the year, I think we [00:30:00] should just go ahead and start a nonprofit and we did it. And the next year we opened a nonprofit and it just has continued to grow and grow and grow from there. But I think that the thing about it is that people really feel is that it's a safe space, number one, where there's no judgment. It's a space that there you have people who are award winners all at the same time in the same room with people who just have an idea and always wanted to pursue writing or always wanted to pursue directing or is a photographer who has now an interest in cinematography and it's no Pretense or not, not, not pretense, but like, it's not snooty.

[00:30:38] You know what I'm saying? It's just real laid back and down to earth and people feel comfortable. They feel safe. And it's so amazing seeing the journeys of the members who started out with us. I call them the OGs who started out with us. And now their careers are in such amazing places and I feel so honored to have been a part of that journey.

[00:30:58] And every year it gets [00:31:00] harder and harder because there's no support for non profits. The grants have really, really dried up and we are always scrambling like, okay, how are we going to basically fund these initiatives, fund these programs, fund the organization? So we just have to continue to be flexible and be nimble and just kind of go with It's kind of like I'm learning how to swim.

[00:31:20] And the swim instructor said to me, like, don't fight the water, just go with the water. And so with a nonprofit, , especially a scrappy one like ours, you just kind of have to go with the ebbs and flows. And so we're still every year trying to figure it out.

[00:31:35] Rachel: Uh, we can certainly relate to that. Ebbs and flows indeed. Um, but I wanted to ask a follow up question because you mentioned #OscarsSoWhite and the industry has certainly been paying attention to issues of having different voices and different representation behind the screen and in front of it.

[00:31:55] And I'm just curious to hear your perspective. Do you think that there's a real shift or do [00:32:00] you think this is sort a moment in time, especially now that there's been sort of a backlash in many ways, or what are you seeing in the film and TV industry?

[00:32:10] Huriyyah: well, there is a contraction right now within the industry. All of the trades have, reported on it. And just in general, in terms of the shows that are being green lit, the shows that are being renewed, there's, just less in, in development. A lot of the production companies and networks of studios now are owned by hedge funds and folks who are just like, this is all about the bottom line.

[00:32:36] There's a lot of anxiety right now in the industry because it's just such a tumultuous time coming off of the strikes. The actors strike, the writers strike, the directors didn't strike, but they thought about it. You know, the, uh, the IATSE, which is like below the line, their contracts are now just now being finalized.

[00:32:55] And so there's just a lot of upheaval. And then when you add on top of that, you know, [00:33:00] the anxiety that people feel around AI. And what that's going to mean for jobs and how the networks in the studios are going to now actually implement that technology and what that may mean. People of color, especially who have been marginalized in this industry are especially nervous because our stories were just now beginning to be invited into the fold. And so now that there's slashes, there's so DEI heads that have been those jobs have been eliminated across the studios and across the networks. So it's a lot of, I don't know how it's going to shake out, but everyone is feeling quite anxious. I'll put it like that.

[00:33:44] Felicia: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thanks for sharing because I think it's so interesting. You know, of course, we are a DEI consulting firm. So, uh, we're super plugged into all the trends, but we are not in film and TV, but these issues are universal, right? So I don't like [00:34:00] to hear that your industry is also experiencing this, but it makes sense because we were just talking earlier today about how none of this stuff operates in the silo. And so it makes sense that you're also seeing that. we are definitely feeling a little bit more hopeful. So I'm hoping that will extend to all aspects of life, not just corporate training.

[00:34:21] Huriyyah: think I saw, uh, something that said Microsoft eliminated all of their DEI over the past couple of, like, the

[00:34:27] Felicia: Yeah. So it's an interesting point and I'm glad you brought it up because I don't even know if we've talked about this, Rachel, but the headlines were definitely a little bit more alarmist than what actually happened. So what happened was they cut a handful of DEI roles, but they didn't eliminate their entire DEI team.

[00:34:45] So they still have a head of DEI. They still are doing DEI work. It's really interesting because for me, I think a lot about like media literacy and things like that, especially with there's so much misinformation out there. If anything else, the last couple of years have showed [00:35:00] us that the way you, you know, title things and name things and how we consume information is changing.

[00:35:05] So I'm so interested that that's the title that I forget who published that article. I think maybe it was Business Insider, but that's how they chose to spin it. And I'm curious why, because when you actually dig into it, I think the head of DEI at Microsoft herself posted on LinkedIn was like, um, I'm still here.

[00:35:22] I still have a job

[00:35:24] Huriyyah: Yeah.

[00:35:24] Felicia: Still doing this work. So like, don't believe all the hype. Also, yes, there were some cuts. But it wasn't quite as extreme, but it doesn't mean that it's good. It just is a little bit more nuanced

[00:35:35] Rachel: And there have been certainly big cuts in other companies and organizations, for sure. So, and

[00:35:42] Huriyyah: it was, it was clickbait. In other words, it's what you're

[00:35:45] Felicia: think so. I think so. And you know, and there's probably some kind of like agenda behind it. Who knows? But

[00:35:51] Huriyyah: Yeah, well, the agenda to make money is to get us to stop and say, Oh my God, and click on that, you know, um,

[00:35:57] Felicia: well, it worked. It worked. Whoever's listening.

[00:35:59] Huriyyah: [00:36:00] Yeah, sure. But we do have to pay attention. For so long, the question is, Are these actions performative, or is it something that you see is a benefit to the bottom line of the company?

[00:36:14] Like, do you see that DEI and the efforts that you're making in this area is benefiting the company long term or do you just not care? You know what I mean? Cause it, or is it just like, you know what, this is a little bit controversial now and we can make money any, any other way. So let's just invest in another way to make money, you know?

[00:36:33] It goes to the ethos of who's leading the organization and, and the, you know, if, if we weren't recording this, I would say the boss, how strong are you to push back against, What you know, and do the right thing.

[00:36:48] You know what I'm saying?

[00:36:49] Rachel: Yeah,

[00:36:50] Felicia: Yeah, totally. And just so you can say whatever you want to say on this recording, like we are open for anything.

[00:36:56] Rachel: We,

[00:36:57] I, 

[00:36:57] Felicia: no censorship.

[00:36:58] Rachel: well. And I feel like this is a perfect [00:37:00] time for me to just throw in how much I hate Elon Musk since I have to do it at every podcast interview as much as I can because he's not listening.

[00:37:08] Huriyyah: Yeah, yeah, I second that.

[00:37:09] Rachel: And honestly, even if he were listening, fine.

[00:37:12] Felicia: hate you.

[00:37:13] Huriyyah: I saw a show on, uh, Apple TV, like I'm such a big nerd and I love science. One of the things that I love particularly is outer space, our solar system, anything to do with the galaxy. The telescope on Instagram, they publish the photos of the stars.

[00:37:28] And I just, when you talk about geeking out, I just am so amazed at how beautiful it is. And so I saw this show called Mars on Apple TV. Have you guys seen that? And basically, it's about Elon Musk's race to actually build a society on Mars, and how he's testing rockets to be able to land.

[00:37:51] And as much as I can't stand Elon Musk, I just was so loving the show. It was like, every time he came on camera, I was like, uh, you [00:38:00] know, but I was like, give me more, but they canceled the show. But I really, really love that series.

[00:38:05] Rachel: You know, this is why things are complicated. There's things that we can love, and then there's things that we can hate, and there, and there we are, and the love of science,

[00:38:14] Felicia: messy.

[00:38:14] Rachel: it's messy, but I love anything on Apple TV, even though Apple's a problematic too, what are you going to do?

[00:38:21] Felicia: Everything is problematic. Well, I did want to just quickly throw in, um, building off of what you're just talking about with the Microsoft story. So, relatedly, and sort of a counterpoint to that story, I think, and I'm going to totally bungle the numbers. So we'll have to look it up later. But I think Sephora just made an announcement where they've really been doubling down on their diversity efforts, and they have been making billions of dollars by focusing on people of color, non binary people, men, people who are not the traditional, historical definition of who buys makeup. And so that's been a very bright light in the argument that DEI and diversity is good for business. So I just wanted to [00:39:00] throw that out there to make us feel better about that as

[00:39:01] Rachel: Late, late breaking news, 10 billion.

[00:39:06] Felicia: billion. I feel like I should have like my pinky up to my 

[00:39:09] Rachel: Uh huh. Well, it just goes to show the power of the beauty industry, which is problematic in and of itself. But anyway,

[00:39:16] Huriyyah: but I wasn't going to say it. I wasn't going to say it. I was like, great before a great, you know, but listen, listen,

[00:39:25] Felicia: statement? It's like all our faves are problematic.

[00:39:28] Huriyyah: you can't please. It's like, you know, no pleasing these people. You can't please all the people all the time.

[00:39:33] Felicia: let's go in a slightly different direction because we could probably just go off on this all day long. But the reason we actually connected with you is because you worked as a director on the film Ramadan America. And so you directed the really sweet and Nani's Biryani, which I loved. How did you get involved in that project?

[00:39:53] Huriyyah: Yeah. One of the, uh, executive producers, Valerie Steinberg, she and I, uh, went through the film [00:40:00] independent producers lab together. She was producing Inspection, a really amazing film that, premiered at, I think it premiered at TIFF last year. You can check it out, Eledance Bratton's film.

[00:40:11] And I was producing Farewell Amour that I mentioned that you can check out on, uh, on the criterion channel now, but, uh, and also a movie. And I think it's on Hulu, but I don't tell people because they have commercials in it and I can't stand the commercials. If you watch it on. Please don't watch it with the commercials.

[00:40:30] So that's how I met Valerie. When my film Wonders, the film about the baby that poops gold nuggets, when that was at Outfest, Valerie and I sat on a panel together and she said, Huriyyah, you're Muslim, right? And I was like, yeah. She's like, I'm actually executive producing a series called Ramadan America.

[00:40:48] And we're looking for Muslim directors who can, you know, direct these episodes. And would you be interested? And I said, Oh, send me a script and I'll let you know. And so they sent me a couple of [00:41:00] scripts and it's a gentleman named Asad Butt and his company Rifilian. And the scripts were really amazing.

[00:41:06] They were fun. They were funny. The only thing was that the timeline was so short. Basically Asad's vision was to have all Muslim directors, all Muslim actors, like as many Muslims as possible working on the production in front of and behind the camera, just to give them an opportunity because a lot of times Muslim Americans don't get an opportunity within this industry and our stories don't get told.

[00:41:30] And so I was like, I love the mission. I love the vision. I read the script. It was written by Faroukh Virani. And it was kind of about his mom and their love of biryani. And for me, I always take it back to what is, what's my connection to it. And my connection to it was about my parents donut bakery.

[00:41:49] And here in the story, for those of you who are listening, the story is basically about this 13 year old boy who wants to be Instagram famous by creating a hack [00:42:00] for biryani. And if you've ever had biryani, if you've never had biryani, it's basically the best rice dish that's ever invented. You have lamb biryani, Chicken biryani.

[00:42:12] It's just so delicious. If you go to an Indian restaurant or South Asian restaurant, or even an East African restaurant, they have biryani too. But he wants to put cheese whiz in his biryani and as soon as I say cheese whiz, you should already know this is terrible.

[00:42:26] This is a terrible idea. This is going to be a terrible recipe. It's going to turn out disgusting. Um, and he needs his grandma to come and help him. And it was really sweet. And I thought about, you know, my family with the doughnuts and we're traditionalists, like we don't make these newfangled doughnuts with bacon on doughnuts.

[00:42:41] We just, if you can make a classic glaze, a classic old fashioned, a classic cinnamon roll, classic twist, that's all you need. And so it turned out really well. I'm really proud of it. It stars Rizwan Manji and his son, Aarik manji. It's just a really amazing film. And it won a SeriesFest, the 2024 [00:43:00] SeriesFest, the first ever Excellence in Storytelling.

[00:43:03] For me, I always want my films to feel like you got a hug at the end. And I think that this film feels like that.

[00:43:09] Rachel: It was a big hug. We did watch this and it was lovely and the kid was just delightful and definitely felt like a warm hug. So amazing job. So speaking of the job that you do, can you share for our audience what exactly a director does? What does it entail?

[00:43:29] Huriyyah: Yeah, directing is really about two parts of your brain. It's about the leadership and management, but then it's also about creativity and flexibility and just the power of storytelling and the power of harnessing just real emotions to tell a story. And for me, I really appreciate being able to use those both two sides of my brain because I have this really strong leadership background and it's really strong management background [00:44:00] and producing background.

[00:44:01] But at the same time, I just love telling stories. That's just going to make somebody feel something. Or saying something that maybe a writer took a year to write and, and they felt that connected to the material and that connected to the story and that connected to the message and being able to bring that forth through the vessel of acting and through the vessel of directing.

[00:44:21] And it really is just about being flexible, being creative, being empathetic. Being able to communicate well, being able to lead different teams of people and being able to manage well and manage your own emotions at the same time while you do it. Um, so it's so many different skills that are required, but it's so much fun.

[00:44:44] Felicia: Well, let's talk about some of the obstacles and challenges for folks getting into directing because I feel like, and again, you know, Rachel and I are not from your industry, so we are totally coming at this from a very outside perspective of people who consume, but we do not do, [00:45:00] although the more I talk to folks like you and we've talked to one or two other folks who also worked in Ramadan America, I'm like, You know, I think we could totally be producers and directors, Rachel.

[00:45:10] Rachel: We definitely have that 

[00:45:10] Felicia: set. We had the energy and the skill set. From my perspective, I get a good sense of what it takes and the issues and challenges in breaking into acting, but I don't think we talk so much about what it takes to break into directing, especially when, you know, and I'll use you as an example, you're a Muslim black woman.

[00:45:28] And, and so I'm just curious, whether it's in your own experience or more general experiences, what are some common challenges that might come up for folks trying to get into this?

[00:45:38] Huriyyah: Well, it can be a very expensive industry to try to break into, you know, particularly for directing because you need so many other people to bring a vision to life. You cannot hold the camera and put up the lights and hold the boom and be in front of the camera acting at the same time that you're [00:46:00] directing.

[00:46:00] So you need a team of people depending upon what level you want to direct on. And so the biggest obstacle is always going to be time and money. I always encourage people to start out small. Start out spending the least amount of money you can possibly spend just to start to just get a feel for it. Then as you grow in your skillset, it's going to attract people to you who admire the work that you're doing and the passion that you have for it. And then the, the energy around your work is going to grow and grow and grow. At least that has been the case for me. And then also I say you gotta be willing to network horizontally.

[00:46:41] So for example, if there is a person who's interested in cinematography. And you are interested in directing, like maybe y'all should team up, because that person is looking for an opportunity and you're looking for an opportunity. You have to help other people . You reap what you sow in this world. You get back what you put out in this world.

[00:46:59] So you have [00:47:00] to be willing to go out there and really help and invest in other people. And then other people will help and invest in you. And so those are two things. And then also, the other thing is that I think you have to be able to look. at your work critically and analytically. Like what did I, okay, I made this film, how could I have made this film better? There's so many other things, but another thing is that before you direct, make sure that the script is really great. If the script is not great, it's not going to turn out great. And then another thing that somebody told me is get the best actor you can possibly get.

[00:47:36] Because that's going to help you so, so, so very much. That's for people who are just starting out. So now for people who have been in the industry for so long, and they are trying to like really level up, I'll say, a lot of times people don't tell you this or the programs don't tell you this.

[00:47:53] They're gatekeepers in our industry. For example, all of the networks, they have director's programs, you know, where you [00:48:00] can come and you shadow on a show and recently they've just implemented where now you'll get a guaranteed episode.

[00:48:07] And you need to get your first couple of episodes in order to really get some traction in this industry as a television director. But you have to have some kind of proximity to the show or to television sets so that they can have some kind of trust in you. So look for opportunities to shadow.

[00:48:23] When you have those opportunities to shadow on a show, then that will help you to actually get your foot in the door. Nobody's path is the same. And I asked God, I said, God, why didn't you just put it in my heart to make me a doctor or something? Where I could go to school for X amount of years.

[00:48:39] I do my residency and now I'm gonna get hired by and I'm a doctor. Or be an engineer where there's like a, a straight career path. You do this amount of school and then you go out and you get a job. Like, why couldn't you put that in my heart? Why did you have to put in my heart to be a storyteller to tell stories like, There is no path for this.

[00:48:58] Everybody's path is different. So you [00:49:00] have to be willing to be flexible. I've been in this industry now for about 20 years. And if somebody had told me, Huriyyah, it's going to take you 20, 25 years before you're actually going to really break in. Oh, if I would have made the same choice, honestly, I don't, I may have made a different choice. But every year it's like that little carrot that's right in front of your face and you think the carrot is right there and you just keep going and you keep going and you keep going. There's a lot of things that you sacrifice in the pursuit of working in this industry. Not a lot of people actually break into the highest level where you're actually on the inside of the industry. And I think you have to really ask yourself, am I okay with that? Am I okay with not having a retirement? Am I okay with living a lifestyle in which I am very much in a financially perilous situation most of the years of my pursuit of this? [00:50:00] Am I okay? You have to have those hard questions. I'm lucky because I have a really great spouse. My spouse really supports my dreams and supports my endeavors and has been really a rock in my corner. But we don't always, we don't all have that, you know what I mean?

[00:50:15] So you, you are sacrificing a lot in pursuit of becoming a director and you have to be okay with that.

[00:50:23] Rachel: Did you ever feel like you got any sort of answer when you were asking this question?

[00:50:29] Huriyyah: No, but I said, you have to help me. You put this dream, God, you put this dream in my heart. You put this dream in my heart. So you have to help me, you know, so let's go, you know? I honestly do feel like that because of the fact that I've helped so many people and that's something that I really enjoy doing.

[00:50:47] I love, like, helping other people, like even producing. I love producing because I'm helping the artists around me to do their best work. I'm helping this writer, director to bring this story [00:51:00] to life in a way that he or she has this vision for. Even past that, I just love really helping people and I think that that comes back to me. I really believe in that.

[00:51:11] Rachel: I believe in that as well. I think about how I think with YouTube and honestly, to the quality of phones, there's been so much like, oh, you know, you can just, you can create your own art and then that will lead you in, but like Felicia said, I'm very much an outsider to this.

[00:51:26] It still, still seems like that chasm between people who are sort of self publishing and tossing their stuff up to actually getting a contract deal with Netflix or HBO or Amazon or whatever is like so different. Do you ever see like an opportunity ? Have you heard of a story where someone was making some webisodes and

[00:51:47] Huriyyah: Oh, of course. That's Issa Rae.

[00:51:49] Rachel: Oh, I didn't know Issa Rae started out with just making webisodes.

[00:51:53] Huriyyah: she had a web series called Awkward Black Girl, and that web series was so popular, and you [00:52:00] know, she had a lucky break, and the lucky break led her to developing with the genius Larry Wilmore, being insecure with HBO. And that was really her entryway into the industry. But Issa Rae is the exception, not the rule.

[00:52:16] There's so many people who develop web series that never get that type of opportunity. I've been talking to a lot of people right now who are thinking of tech. You know, like, okay, segwaying into tech, or really paying attention right now to AI and the opportunity AI perhaps has in our industry and where that's going to lead . We're riding that wave toward a more financially stable footing. And there's a lot of folks asking themselves the hard questions in our industry right now.

[00:52:48] Felicia: We're going to start wrapping up sadly, but, um, we have our, our favorite question, which we'd like to ask folks, which is what do you geek out about that is not work related? And I know [00:53:00] you sort of technically have already answered this question, but I'm going to still open it up to you anyway, because there may be other stuff out there that you also geek out about that we don't know about yet.

[00:53:09] Huriyyah: Yeah, so I definitely am a nerd. So I geek out about science. I really love science. But not just like, the astronomy, also health. Like there's a show right now on Netflix that, that is about these twins. And one has a very vegan lifestyle. They're doing a test and the other one has a meat based lifestyle.

[00:53:32] So a plant based versus meat based diet and what happens to the body as a result of that. And my favorite parts of the show are when they're talking about what is actually happening in our body from a biological standpoint when we eat different types of things. And I just really love science.

[00:53:51] I'm such a science nerd. Past science, another thing that I geek out about is just my daughter and watching her grow and just watching [00:54:00] her development from the things that she talks about, the conversation she has. Like she came home, uh, probably about two weeks ago saying, I have an idea.

[00:54:09] Yeah. And I'm like, okay, what is it? And she doesn't realize that, okay, when she says, I have an idea, you're supposed to have an idea. She just now, she's just saying, I have an idea. And we're just like, okay, what's your idea? So it's just really amazing just seeing this human being grow in front of us.

[00:54:30] Felicia: How old is she?

[00:54:32] Huriyyah: She's three years old.

[00:54:33] Felicia: Oh, so cute. She's like, just thought you would want to know. I have ideas. And you're

[00:54:39] Huriyyah: Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:39] Felicia: good to know. You should have ideas.

[00:54:41] Rachel: Yeah, and then the response could be, I do too. I

[00:54:49] Huriyyah: home and she has like a different just level of communication skills or she's doing something that's so cute. And then she just [00:55:00] stops doing it because she's grown past that, and it's like, you never know when is that going to be the last time you ever see that because she has grown out of it, you know, so you can savor every single moment. And being a parent, it's just made me a better human being. It's made me more empathetic and loving and forgiving of myself, because I see that, literally she just does not know certain things. Like she has no frame of reference. She has no experience. When she was born, if you hold up a pencil in front of her face, she could not tell you what in the world is a pencil.

[00:55:35] Like, what is that? It's like an alien coming to our planet. Like, what is this? Then I think about myself where I was so critical about certain choices that I made or certain directions that I went in. I went left when I felt like I, in hindsight, I should have went right.

[00:55:49] And I'm like, Huriyyah, you just didn't know. You know, you had no experience in there. You had no reference and you just didn't know. So it's enabled me to be more [00:56:00] forgiving of times in my life where I feel like I made the wrong choice or I made the wrong decision or just decisions that I've made. It's just made me calmer, more willing to stop and smell the flowers, you know. 

[00:56:12] Rachel: As you were sharing that, I was thinking at first when you're talking about your daughter and how she's growing, and there's all these changes, I was thinking how beautifully that ties into science, right? Like, I mean, I, I would, Joke with a good friend of mine, such a science nerd.

[00:56:28] And when she was pregnant, we both talked about how it was just like having a living science experiment in her body, you know, and then seeing all of that. But then as you were continuing to talk, it's was so much like marrying the science with art and beauty. It was just really lovely. So I see it. It's very gorgeous.

[00:56:47] So thank you for sharing that.

[00:56:48] Huriyyah: Welcome.

[00:56:49] Rachel: Yeah. One final question is before we wrap up, is there anything you want to share? Promote? Projects? Things?

[00:56:57] Huriyyah: Yeah, sure. Well, Chocolate with [00:57:00] Sprinkles is on the film festival circuit right now. So I can tell you if you guys want to see it go to chocolate w sprinkles. com, you can see all of the places that it's playing and you can check it out for yourself.

[00:57:12] Felicia: Wonderful. We will definitely share that in the show notes so people can check that out. Anything else that people want to learn more about you, your work, any of the bajillion things that you are involved with? Is there a good place for folks to follow up with you afterwards?

[00:57:27] Huriyyah: You can, uh, check out my Instagram is huriyyahmwright. All of my links will be in the, on the thing. Right.

[00:57:34] Felicia: Yes.

[00:57:35] Huriyyah: Instagram, black TV and film collect. I'm really easy to find online.

[00:57:42] Rachel: Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate this conversation. Yay!

[00:57:46] Huriyyah: having me. This was so fun. Thank you.

[00:57:49] Felicia: Thank you. 

[00:57:55] All right. So we hope you enjoyed [00:58:00] listening to our interview with Haria as much as we enjoyed the conversation. We could have truly kept going. It was such a

[00:58:06] Rachel: Agreed. And thank you so much for listening. Please don't forget to rate, share, and subscribe. It truly makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, this work and visit us on YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date on all things inclusion geeks. Stay geeky, my friends.