Bonus Episode: How to Manage Discussions about the Election in the Workplace

[00:00:00] Rachel: Hi, and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast presented by Inclusion Geeks. We geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work to make the world a better and brighter place. I'm Rachel, one of the co hosts of this lovely podcast. Today, we're sharing a special episode recorded on October 30th.

[00:00:26] Rachel: This episode is a conversation between my cohost and business partner, Felicia Jadczak and Katie Hyten, co executive director of Essential Partners, an organization dedicated to helping people build relationships across differences to address their most pressing challenges. Felicia and Katie explore whether politics should be discussed at work, how to manage these discussions, and the nuanced perspectives leaders need to consider. They highlight the importance of giving employees agency to opt in or opt out of political conversations and suggest establishing norms for a healthy dialogue that considers psychological and emotional safety.

[00:01:02] Rachel: Listen on for practical tips and strategies for these challenging times. 

[00:01:05] Felicia: So welcome everyone. So excited to have you here. We'll do more formal introductions in just a minute, but so glad to have you all here with us today. So this is the how to manage discussions about the election in the workplace webinar. We're going to have a great conversation together today, and I'm really excited to be here with all of you. So for folks who've been to a SheGeeksOut or an Inclusion Geeks webinar before, this is going to be a little bit different than usual.

[00:01:36] Felicia: It'll be more of a conversational feel. And so, hopefully you'll get some good information from our discussion today. I'm personally really excited.

[00:01:43] Felicia: We will be having some dedicated time towards the end of today's webinar for Q& A. I know a lot of you have submitted questions in advance, but if you have questions along the way, please feel free to go ahead and put those in the chat. All right, so I think we're going to just get into it. So let's do some intros. So I'll start off with my introduction because I'm the one who's been speaking so far. So if you don't know who I am, it's probably a good point for me to share that.

[00:02:11] Felicia: And then I'll pass it over to my, my guest today, Katie. So my name is Felicia Jadzak. I am the co-founder, co-CEO, and head of L&D at Inclusion Geeks. I use she, her pronouns, and I'm based in Western Massachusetts, which is the traditional lands of the Nipmuc, Pocumtuc, and Nonotec peoples. Uh, for anyone who's familiar with Western Massachusetts, I'm in Easthampton.

[00:02:34] Felicia: And so if you're from this area, let me know, because I'm always looking to make connections with folks out here. I have been working as a DEI practitioner for probably over 10 years now, maybe closer to 11 or 12 years, depending on how we want to slice and dice it. And I'm really excited about this kind of work in general, and this conversation that we're going to be having today, because I think it really hits on what is very key to a lot of us.

[00:02:58] Felicia: And it's It's been really important to me, which is both identities and how we are thinking about showing up authentically in the workplace. So a couple of my identities that I always bring to mind, and I think are relevant for me to share with you all today is that I am biracial and I am hard of hearing, I'm disabled.

[00:03:18] Felicia: So for those of you who can make use of our closed captions, that's available to you today. It's something I'll be using myself. If it's not something that you need, you can go ahead and just turn that off on your own. There's a lot of people that are using their own zoom tools. But those are two of my identities that I keep particularly top of mind in this work.

[00:03:36] Felicia: I spent most of my career in the tech space before making the move into entrepreneurship over 10 years ago and I have a lot of experience with thinking about how do I want to show up? How are others viewing me? How am I representing different groups within the workplace? And I wouldn't really change those experiences because they've helped me come to this work.

[00:03:57] Felicia: But I think about that a lot. As I do this work myself with my wonderful Inclusion Geeks team and with wonderful partners like Katie. So with that being said, Katie, I'm going to pass it over to you to introduce yourself. 

[00:04:09] Katie: Hey, y'all. It's so nice to be here. Felicia, thank you so much for having me. It has been such a joy to work with y'all for a long time.

[00:04:16] Katie: So I'm really excited to finally have this opportunity to hang out together in a more formal way. So as Felicia mentioned, my name is Katie Hyten. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I'm one of the co executive directors of a nonprofit called Essential Partners. Essential Partners has been around for about 35 years.

[00:04:33] Katie: We work nationally and we operate a little bit similar to a nonprofit, but our mission has always been from the beginning to help people build relationships across differences who would help them address their most pressing challenges. For us, what that means is we work with partners over a long period of time to help build skills and also build infrastructure for people to engage in constructive ways across differences and ways that invite a sense of agency, invite a sense of inclusion and pluralism, and also build some hope into the process.

[00:05:06] Katie: And so that's really what I'm bringing with me here today. My background is in international negotiation and conflict resolution. I did some work on foreign policy and the intersection of foreign policy with identity and religion, specifically. So I've worked in interfaith contexts in higher education.

[00:05:23] Katie: I've worked as a mediator in district courts. I was a visiting fellow at Tufts, where I taught a course on dialogue, identity, and civic action with a dear colleague of mine. And also I was raised in a military family. So I also bring a lived experience of kind of constantly having to be in a new place and figure out the invisible norms of that place and figure out what the culture looked like of every space.

[00:05:45] Katie: And so I'm bringing a lot of that with me and those experiences with me today as well. Uh, anything else that you wanted me to share before we move on? 

[00:05:53] Felicia: Um, no, I think that's a great start, Katie. I'm sure we will both be sharing more as we get into today's conversation. And just for those who are here today, Katie and I have known each other for several years now, pre pandemic, as I like to say. 

[00:06:05] Felicia: My new marker for time. Is it pre pandemic or post pandemic with a heavily quoted post pandemic there. Um, so we've known each other for years now, and I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today because we've had a lot of these kinds of discussions in more informal sessions, but this is going to be a bit more of a formal way of of us talking, chatting, and connecting together. So with that being said, let's get into it. Now, when Katie and I were planning this discussion for you all today, we decided that we had to start off with a check in because we are both practice facilitators and you know facilitators cannot pass up a good opportunity for good meaty check in questions.

[00:06:44] Felicia: So the check in question that Katie actually, um, this is inspired by you and Essential Partners that we came up with is, what would you like others to understand about how you're doing today or how you're bringing yourself to work today? So we're going to put that into the chat if folks need that, but, we'll start off ourselves.

[00:07:03] Felicia: And if anyone else wants to join in and check in, in the chat with that as well, please feel free to do so. Um, so Katie, what would you like me or our folks here today to understand about how you're doing today? Um, 

[00:07:16] Katie: uh, I am. So I'm so glad that we got to start with this because it's, it's a really interesting experience for me because the election season is such a massive professional season for Essential Partners in my organization.

[00:07:31] Katie: And so we've just been so busy. And I came to this meeting straight from a staff meeting where we're checking in with our staff and hearing about how our team is doing. And y'all, it is tired out there. It is, it is. It's a vibe out there right now. And so it was really nice, but also a, such a good reminder for me as I come to this space to be paying attention.

[00:07:54] Katie: And I saw this in a lot of your check ins too. How are our folks doing? How are our people doing? How are we doing? Uh, and so for me, that's the energy that I bring to this webinar is really kind of honoring the experience of my own team that I just came to this meeting with, and knowing that actually right after this webinar, I have the opportunity to go and head into an all hands team meeting, so I'm getting ready for to see folks in person as well.

[00:08:17] Katie: What would you like others to understand, Felicia, about how you're bringing yourself to work today? 

[00:08:21] Felicia: Yeah, so first plus one to everything you shared. Um, it is a vibe out there for better for worse. And I think on that note, I think, you know, people including myself are stressed, like we're, there's a lot of anxiety out there.

[00:08:35] Felicia: And I think depending on everyone's, you know, particular roles. Like, of course, we're gonna be talking today about workplace contexts, but you know, we are whole humans, right? And so there's a lot of stuff that's happening beyond the election. And the election is certainly taking center place for, I think, many, if not all of us.

[00:08:52] Felicia: That's why we're here together today. So, yes, I think I've been, I've been feeling stressed and anxious. And I've also been feeling, um, I don't know if I want to call it the weight, but the I'm acknowledging my positionality and my role as we get closer and closer to election day where I'm not just thinking about myself personally and how I'm showing up on a personal level, but I'm also thinking about.

[00:09:18] Felicia: My clients, my partners, my vendors, my team and how I can help and support or show up for them as we also get closer collectively to this time. And acknowledging that, of course, we are talking today about the US election, but that doesn't mean that that's the only part of the world that matters. There's a lot of other stuff going on outside the US too.

[00:09:39] Felicia: And there are other elections happening too. So that's kind of how I'm feeling right now. So yeah, and I see people are putting stuff in the chat. Please feel free to continue to share as well. And I'm seeing stuff that's echoing what we both shared too. So I think we're, we're in this together. Um, but let's, let's kind of dig into a little bit further because I do want to talk about politics in particular.

[00:10:00] Felicia: And so I want to actually start off by sharing this image here. And so this is something that I came across recently, and I'm not sure if folks are familiar or remember or use still the company or the platform Basecamp. Um, but in 2021, they were very much in the news because their CEO asked all their employees to not talk about politics in company communication channels.

[00:10:24] Felicia: So think, you know, teams, slack, that kind of thing. And it was a big deal. And there's more to it than just this. Of course, this is a bit simplified, but basically 1 in 3 of the Basecamp employees ended up quitting as a result, because of this ask. And so with this in mind, my first question that I'd love us to kind of both dig into Katie is should or shouldn't politics be discussed in the workplace?

[00:10:51] Felicia: What do you think?

[00:10:52] Katie: I love, I love this. And it's, you know, we're going to talk about a whole bunch today. I think the short answer that is actually infuriating for most of our partners and clients the first few times we work with them, but is the most honest answer I can give is it depends. And for us, it depends on purpose.

[00:11:09] Katie: You know, I think so many folks have this idea that we should or shouldn't talk about politics in the workplace, but so many of our partners, so many of my friends and my networks, are having a ton of conversations related to the election already. 

[00:11:23] Katie: Related to scenario planning, right? Related to, uh, implications on mission, on business, on revenue. There are conversations about, you know, Um, how folks particularly folks of marginalized identities are holding up and doing and creating a community of care and support. Uh, there's also kind of the very specific kind of impacts that on people's lives that we're looking at and preparing for.

[00:11:51] Katie: So there are so many conversations to have and it's really important for people to opt into the same conversation. Because if one person really needs to have the conversation about they how they particularly. Are going to feel unsafe or feel uncared for or feel, um, very personally concerned for their own well being.

[00:12:12] Katie: And another person is over here talking about the scenario planning for the revenue streams. It creates this huge dissonance and creates a huge missed opportunity for connection. We also pay a lot of attention to agency. And so having those purposeful discussions also allows people to opt in and honor if they need something else that day.

[00:12:34] Katie: Because, and a lot of folks that we talk to, I think there's a huge, opportunity to have conversations about politics in the workplace. I think it's a place where communities happens, where relationships can happen, where skills are built, where habits are formed. And also, I can't tell you how many people I talk to who are like, I don't want to talk about politics in the workplace.

[00:12:56] Katie: I want to do my eight hours and I want to get out and I want to like have my own life where I do my own thing. For whatever reason, maybe it's not safe. Maybe it's too risky. Maybe it's too emotionally exhausting. Maybe they need, you know, six to eight hours of a break from political conversations. I saw people in the chat saying, so the media, I just need a break from this.

[00:13:17] Katie: So creating a sense of purpose also allows people to opt into that and say, yes, I am here for this conversation today with this group of people because it is important for X, Y, or Z reasons. And so the short answer is yes, but the longer answer is it depends. In a way that invites people in, right?

[00:13:39] Felicia: Yeah. And I think that it depends is just so true for so many questions like this that come up because it is really tricky to give blanket answers because every person is different. Every organization has a different culture and different approach. But I do think that, you know, what I'm seeing right now, and this is not just something that's come up recently, it's been building and building for, for quite a while now, but it's, it's, This idea that both, you know, the personal is political, which is not a new idea at all, you know, coming out of second wave feminism, but also this push that's been so prevalent over the last several years around bringing our whole selves to work and being authentic at work.

[00:14:24] Felicia: And so politics is part of that, right? And I think that for folks who are able to say things like, Oh, I don't want to talk about politics anymore, or I can't wait till this election is over. They'll never have to think about this again or, or not as it may be. Um, you know, or they just say, Oh, I choose not to like, that's definitely from a place of privilege.

[00:14:46] Felicia: And for a lot of folks who are in the workforce. It's just not an option. Like, you know, you have to be thinking about this because it's going to impact where we live, where we work, who we work with, how we work with them, if we're able to have access to certain benefits, all these different things, right?

[00:15:04] Felicia: People are talking about moving. So there's a lot of that going on. And, you know, we just, had our check in, right? And people are like, we're stressed, we're anxious, we're worried, we're consumed with all these thoughts. And so how can we be doing our best work if we are having to put aside all these stressors or, or factors that are impacting us?

[00:15:25] Felicia: So I agree in the sense that I think it depends. And I think this is where. Organizations have to realize, and especially I shouldn't just say organization because organizations are not people, even though they might try to be lobbying for that in certain spaces, but organizations are made up of people.

[00:15:43] Felicia: And so when I say organizations, I really mean leaders have to be really aware that you, like your people are going to be looking to you for some guidance could be, we're not talking about this. It could be, we are talking about this. It could be, we have a space. Not, but I think there's certainly, um, it's, it's impossible to just completely separate it out.

[00:16:03] Katie: I couldn't agree more. And one of the things that we always tell our clients and our partners is that conversations across differences, conversations about politics will happen. You can't escape them because, as someone mentioned in the chat, they're inseparable from our lives. The personal is political. And, how different workplaces are impacted, what topics, what political concerns are top of mind are really variable.

[00:16:28] Katie: And the other thing that I think about a lot, and this is me personally as a leader, is that, yes, I have a lot of power in terms of what I can invite. I also have a lot of power and I have to come to that with a lot of awareness in terms of the risk of having these conversations too. Uh, and so one of the things that I love about this kind of starting with a clear purpose and then inviting people to opt in, and the other thing that I often say is not just opt in, but ask what would allow you to fully participate in this conversation? Because these conversations are also really risky and they're inequitably risky. Um, they're inequitably risky because some people's jobs are on the line. I mean, we've had clients who have lost their jobs because they invite their classes to have a conversation about what's happening in Gaza, or they have a commitment to doing emotional and social learning in their classrooms, and it and they lose their jobs because of it, right? And so there's also an incredible power that comes from this that I want to invite people and acknowledge that just because yes, politics is personal.

[00:17:33] Katie: Yes, it's important to talk about. Yes, it is impacting everyone to different levels and different degrees, and we should be having conversations about what matters most, right, at work, because it does impact it. I also can't ignore the fact that just because all of that is true, it means everyone's equally okay having conversations about something very political or very tender or very vulnerable, right?

[00:17:57] Katie: Um, even conversations about healthcare, right? It's such a tender and really important conversation to have. That doesn't mean everyone's ready to have it in a whole group. And so kind of building out and scaffolding those, those conversations is a lot of the work that we do. To make sure that there's a clear purpose that people can opt in and that we're saying, what would it make?

[00:18:18] Katie: What would make it possible for you to fully participate? Or how would you like to be heard here? 

[00:18:24] Felicia: Yeah, and I think there are definitely and I I've talked a lot with, you know, various people over the last few months too, like there's also organizations and leaders who are like, I don't want to invite these conversations in which is a choice.

[00:18:36] Felicia: And that's a valid choice. And that's okay. And if you're in this kind of position, making this kind of statement or decision, you have to be aware that it may trickle in any way. How will you handle that? So with that, Absolutely. Maybe we can talk a little bit, and I know you mentioned some of your, you know, your approaches and your frameworks, um, with this idea of, okay, so you're in a leadership or management position, and you want to maybe check in, you're not sure how people are feeling about the election, or health care politics in general or other stuff going on.

[00:19:12] Felicia: How can people in these kinds of more leadership, managerial positions do this sort of check in or temperature pulse checking without crossing that personal boundary? What have you been work for you? 

[00:19:25] Katie: I mean, it's, it's a great question and I, and I do, it's, it is tricky, you know, being in both roles, I will say, and I don't know what your experience has been Felicia, but we have had more legal teams join our conversations, our planning team meetings, our, our client meetings in the last year than we have in my entire 10 years that I've been at Essential Partners.

[00:19:45] Katie: Because folks are so worried about that risk, right, of saying, what do we what if we say the wrong thing? What if we open ourselves up to a lawsuit? What if, you know, what are the implications here? And and for me, our always encouragement is to say yes, but what are the risks if you don't? Right.

[00:20:04] Katie: What are the risks to your team, to your people, but also to your organization, if you don't have these conversations. I think Harvard Business Review did a study a few years ago where they found belonging was linked to a 56 percent increase in job performance and a 50 percent drop in turnover and a 75 percent reduction in sick days.

[00:20:24] Katie: Right. So there are reasons to be having these conversations beyond, you know, this. Or in addition to this very personal element of what does it mean to be a leader in this time. And so what I generally start with, you know, there, there are a few different things that we do, but one of them is a check in just like what we did today.

[00:20:45] Katie: A question like that, what would you like others to understand about how you're doing today or how you're bringing yourself to work today? It invites people to come at the threshold that they're prepared to come. Right. So you can say, I'm really tired. You can say, actually, I'm feeling a lot of personal anxiety and fear about this election, and here's why. In our staff meetings personally at Essential Partners, we've started extending the check in period around this time. So it just goes as long as the staff meeting needs it to go. And I think this morning. I think it was about half an hour. We spent just checking in on how people were doing and then we had one person pass and I always love when one person passes.

[00:21:27] Katie: That's another piece that I really pay attention to is making sure that at all of our conversations and all of our meetings we always have a pass or pass for now agreement. So that you can always just say pass no explanation necessary that creates a sense of agency. It also allows people to opt in over and over and over again.

[00:21:46] Katie: So they know that they're welcome and they're choosing to be in that conversation. And when I say I love when people pass, it means because they know they can, right? They know that they're not going to be questioned. They know that they're not going to be followed up with. It's just there for them.

[00:22:00] Felicia: Yeah. It's such a marker of psychological safety, right? That's an agreement that I actually learned from Essential Partners when I took one of your trainings years ago. And for anyone who's not familiar, if you do guidelines or boundary setting at the start of a meeting, one of these guidelines, as Katie mentioned, pass, basically it means, not willing or able or ready to talk or share. So, you know, keep going. No judgment. No, no worrying. Why did they pass? What's going on? Just okay. It's totally fine. Pass for now. I actually love that. I think even more because what that indicates is, oh, I may want to share. I'm just not ready right now. And what I love about that is for folks who maybe need more time to process, whether, you know maybe English is not your first language, if you're in a meeting where English is the primary language, or you are someone who processes more and need more time to reflect, you didn't get the question in advance, so you Think about it.

[00:22:55] Felicia: You're having a moment and you just need to think about it. So it's like, okay, we'll come back to you and then you can still say pass at that point. If you're like, you know what? But I love that, that, um, that guideline that you use, because I think it's so helpful to give people some sense of agency and structure so you don't feel obligated to share or not if you're not ready.

[00:23:17] Katie: Totally. And I saw Patrick in the chat, ask if there's a good time to kind of circle back and check in in a private setting. And that's actually the other thing that I'd recommend doing, depending on the size of your organization, the size of your team, you could do this in all of your one on ones.

[00:23:30] Katie: You could do this kind of as a sample size, you could do this, with the folks who you feel like, um, might be most impacted. I always recommend asking folks in multiple settings and multiple different ways. So large group conversations, those check ins can be really helpful, can build a sense of community.

[00:23:48] Katie: Your one on ones can be a really great place to ask first on the front end. What is a conversation that you wish we could have or have better as a team? And then what would make it possible for you to be able to talk about those things and hear others? And there is, you know, actually, I was reminded about this just the other day.

[00:24:12] Katie: That our board member was like, I think we need to slow this down. And I think we need to process check in. And I was like, Oh, yeah, of course we do. Like, of course we do. But one of the things that they say that and that we say all the time in our work is that by doing that groundwork up front, everything else moves faster or more streamlined down the line.

[00:24:30] Katie: That that kind of check in on the front end allow give some space to acknowledge the risks and benefits of having these conversations allows them to say allows your team to say what conversations they want to be having that they aren't currently having and also what would make it possible.

[00:24:48] Katie: Then you have that kind of feedback loop in place so that when you have that conversation, you can check in afterwards and say, Hey, I heard that you wanted to talk about this. I heard that you needed X, Y and Z in place. We did the best that we could. And I noticed that you passed in one of the conversations. Do you want to talk more about that in this space? Do you want to give me any other feedback about what that might look like? You can do that. I've never experienced anyone be like, how dare you for checking in later. It can be a really helpful tool, but having that kind of ongoing feedback loop, not having it just be one time will also make it less awkward because if you have the conversation once and then you check in, then there might be a sense of shame, right?

[00:25:30] Katie: There might be a sense of. Um, Oh, shoot. Did I do something wrong by passing on? That's not the message that you want to convey. So by creating that holistic system, makes it more possible. The other thing that you can do if you don't have a practice of, of creating, Felicia, some of those ground rules or agreements that you kind of were those norms that you talked about.

[00:25:53] Katie: We have an exercise on our website called moments of dissent, and it invites groups into a conversation and it starts by asking, imagine that you're in a group talking about something that matters to you. And someone has a question and the first six people all respond generally the same way, and you have something different to say, you're not sure that you could, should, or would share that, in this circumstance. What would make it possible for you to share that thing?

[00:26:21] Katie: So it creates kind of a hypothetical scenario. And then it kind of guides you through the process of designing something together. And one of the things that I find is that people are more likely to pass in constructive ways, and more likely to buy into the process if they see some of the things that they asked for in the design that you create, and so that in and of itself helps them say, Okay, I'm going to be safe here. I can take advantage of this because I give you feedback and I can see that it's been taken. 

[00:26:51] Felicia: I want to click more on that, but I actually, before we go further down that pathway, I do want to just wrap up one other point that came to mind as you were sharing, because I think that I love, I love obviously the pass and pass for now guidelines and everything you've just shared.

[00:27:07] Felicia: It's really important. And I think a lot of people on this call today, or who may be listening to this in the future are people who are in some kind of leadership management position. Or a position of seniority. And because you're here, you are inclined to perhaps follow some of this, this approach. That being said, there are a lot of people out there who this kind of approach would not work for.

[00:27:32] Felicia: They are not in that headspace. That's not how they operate for better or for worse. And so the other thing I want to mention is that. You can also do upwards check ins too, or lateral check ins as well. So no matter what your role is or the kind of relationships you have, if you're someone who's maybe has a manager who would never, ever do anything that we just talked about, you could still check in with them and say, hey, I know it's pretty tense right now. How's it going on, you know, on your front, because I think a lot of times there is a lot of emphasis placed on, you know, being an inclusive leader. You know, holding space and supporting your team. And that's very important. So I'm not downplaying that at all, but. You know, every we're all humans in this together.

[00:28:20] Felicia: And so you could be checking in with your coworker, someone in a different office, a skip level person, you know, a VP or whoever it might be. And I'll share that, earlier in maybe like the 2020, 2021 timeframe, when there was also a lot of stuff happening. And there was a lot of feelings and tensions and stuff going on, I, as a leader myself was thinking a lot about this. I was like, you know, I'm doing a lot of support. And then how, how do I get that back? And do I need that back or not? And it's, this is where positionality I think does come into play a lot. And so we can't expect to necessarily be treated the same way that if you're a leader, you would support your team.

[00:29:03] Felicia: But it can be really helpful just to remember, like, we're all in this together. And even if we may not have the same title, the same tenure, the same beliefs, we're still all experiencing this together. Have you found that dynamic come up in your personal work or in your work with clients? 

[00:29:19] Katie: A hundred percent.

[00:29:20] Katie: And I'm so glad that you brought it up because, What I often say to our partners and our clients. None of the things that we're talking about today are going to be rocket science. You know, we, we talk about asking different questions, listening differently, um, speaking in ways that you are more likely to be heard.

[00:29:36] Katie: We talk about taking a pause and taking a break, right? None of this is rocket science. And I think what makes our work a little bit different is that one of the things we have a systems lens approach that we bring to our work at Essential Partners. So we were founded by family systems therapist that looks at dynamics.

[00:29:52] Katie: And one of the things that we know to be true is that asking a different question can be an intervention, right? It can shift a dynamic, it can shift a cycle, it can make people pause. So the kinds of questions we ask don't just impact how people respond, but they also impact how they think about themselves. How they think about you, how they think about your relationship, how they think about what's possible moving forward.

[00:30:18] Katie: Each of those areas, you know, Listening and showing someone that you're listening can shift a whole dynamic. It's not going to be a golden ticket. There is no such thing, but it can be a really powerful tool. And so we we see that a lot. But if we're going to change systems of how conversations happen, if we're going to make it possible for us to talk about politics and what matters most at work.

[00:30:42] Katie: We have to do that in a way that builds senses of belonging, that builds trust in the process and trust in relationships. And that isn't just a top down thing. A lot of it is top down, but it's not just top down. And so I'm really glad that you brought that up because I do think it, it matters, uh, how we, how we kind of bring this to different areas and different types of relationships that we have at work.

[00:31:02] Felicia: Yeah, it's that curiosity as a tool. And you mentioned, you know, having those conversations. And of course, you and Essential Partners have done a ton of work in the area of dialogue versus debate. And so I would love to get your thoughts, Katie, on using some of our tools and frameworks, some that we've mentioned already, maybe some others that we haven't.

[00:31:22] Felicia: What have you seen work or what are some strategies for maybe de escalating tension when we have these politically charged situations? Because let's be real, I'm sure this is true for pretty much everyone, maybe not everyone, but for most of us. Most of us are working in spaces where we may not know what everyone else thinks and believes, or we may know and we actually don't all believe the same thing. We don't all voting for the same candidate. I know for me, based in Massachusetts, I certainly have a bias towards assuming that everyone is going to be voting and thinking like me. I also know intellectually, that's not always the case. And so sometimes we may be on a team or have a manager or our organization, it may be a bit tense or there might be conflict. So what are some strategies you've seen work well for kind of like bringing down the temperature or at least holding space for that? 

[00:32:16] Katie: Yeah. I mean, I love that you spoke about curiosity because that to me is such a critical element. And it's also one of the things we talk about at our work that even if you're hypothetically voting for the same person, or you kind of know where a person stands politically, there's still layers of complexity underneath that.

[00:32:33] Katie: And one of the things we talk about is that our work doing dialogue is not just about finding surprising common ground. It's also about finding surprising differences with people who you thought were kind of the same as you. And that that also helps make space for people to bring their full selves to work.

[00:32:51] Katie: That even if you kind of have some assumptions that you can prepare yourself to be surprised by something and follow that curiosity. I also think a really important thing to say at this point when we talk about de escalating tension, is that agency also matters here, too, and there are asterisks when it comes to work because in work, you know, your livelihood is on the line, your paycheck is on the line, your bills are on the line.

[00:33:14] Katie: So sometimes you know that there it feels a little bit murky, but one of the tools that we have for de escalation is also stepping away. And it could be stepping away to say actually I want to have this conversation with you, but not right now. I want to have this conversation with you, but not in this format or this way.

[00:33:34] Katie: Or it could be, I feel that I, my personal identity is not safe in this conversation. And so I'm just going to say I'm just going to use the pass agreement here. I'm going to say, um, I'm wondering if we can get back to the project at hand. I'm wondering if we can focus this conversation.

[00:33:49] Katie: And that's why purpose matters too. Because even if you're talking about, say, scenario planning in the election. It allows you to pivot and say, Hey, I really like that question, but I really want to get to the scenario planning at hand. 

[00:34:01] Katie: So pausing and doing an internal check in for yourself and saying what's coming up for me. What do I need right now can be a tool for de escalation. And also a tool to kind of tap into your own agency.

[00:34:14] Katie: But other tools that we use is, is we do think about following your own curiosity. You know, what's something that you've said that you'd like to know more about or like to understand better? And then asking a question about it. We also recommend listening and a lot of people talk about active listening, which is lovely. We have an exercise that I personally really love that invites people to see listening like, um, a color spectrum, right? That at any moment, people are saying and communicating many, many different things in many, many different ways.

[00:34:48] Katie: And not all of them we are trained to see, trained to look for, trained to pay attention to. And so stretching your listening muscles of saying, I'm not just listening for the story that this person is telling me, the kind of who, what, when, where, how, but I'm also listening for the emotions that they're sharing.

[00:35:05] Katie: I'm also listening for the values that they're telling me about and that they hold really deeply. I'm also listening for the important moments and stories and experiences that have informed who they are today. I'm also listening for the relationships that they treasure the most, right? And listening for those things can help build a sense of empathy and can, if you feed them back, they can help that de escalation by helping other people hear that they've been heard.

[00:35:33] Katie: And then the last disclaimer I'll say is that, you know, If it doesn't work, it doesn't, you know, it, it often works, right. But also this is like a great way to check in and say, you know what, this person is not in this conversation for the same reasons, I'm just going to step out. 

[00:35:49] Felicia: Yeah, and I think that's such a important point for all of us to remind ourselves and keep in mind, because I think there is a big difference between inviting healthy conflict and a healthy dialogue and a healthy debate and crossing the line into active harm.

[00:36:05] Felicia: And so if harm is occurring. That's when it's not acceptable in my mind. And, you know, we use a lot of tools where, I don't have great names for them, but things like what I call shut down questions or shut down statements, rather, where, to your point, you know, I don't I'm not ready to have this conversation right now, or my personal favorite, which is also, I've shared this, um, for some of my clients who may be familiar as an ally tool, uh, to, if you're looking to act as an ally, it's just not cool, you know, like super simple, super easy.

[00:36:36] Felicia: And then you can figure out what to say afterwards. If anyone is familiar with the better allies newsletter, they just actually spoke to this not too long ago around saying a good way to approach this, put a pin in it for now where I need time is to say, I'm going to circle back on that.

[00:36:53] Felicia: And so that's another great way to do it. I also want to mention really quickly, though, there is a couple of great frameworks out there to around calling in and calling out. And so I think those are also useful strategies and frameworks that you can use. And there's more info that we can share afterwards if anyone's interested, but, one of the things that I think is really helpful to double click on what you brought up, Katie is using this line of listening and taking the temperature and thinking about how you're, you're using your curiosity is what I really love to always keep in mind is, if you're talking to someone who has differing opinions than you, who has different beliefs than you, who is voting for a different political party, or is saying statements that you don't agree with, or is being really resistant to what you're trying to share, is to try to figure out, like, where is that coming from?

[00:37:42] Felicia: Because that's been a really helpful practice that I have found doing this kind of work and having these kinds of discussions is if I'm hitting resistance is if I have the time and if I'm able to and depending on the space and sometimes it's about saying we have to check in separately or later but really trying to understand from a place of genuine curiosity where does this resistance or where does this pushback or where does this Sometimes it's fear, sometimes it's anger.

[00:38:11] Felicia: Where does that come from? Because it's going to come from somewhere. And if you can follow those breadcrumbs back to a root source, that is a great way to actually get into that dialogue space as opposed to just butting heads with each other. Now, I will say that that's if you really value the relationship, if you value the time.

[00:38:32] Felicia: If you want to engage in this, if you have the emotional spoons to do so, because you may not, and that's okay too, but if you're willing to engage and get into that kind of experience and engagement, that's a really great way I found to keep that top of mind so that you don't get derailed yourself with emotion or anxiety or pressure or or pushback around those kinds of discussions.

[00:38:58] Katie: I love that too, because it really invites people to speak for themselves and their own experiences, which is another ground rule that we often use with our clients, because it's so easy for us to hear someone say something and make an assumption about it, make an assumption about what it means about the rest of their political views or the rest of how they approach me or how they approach the work.

[00:39:18] Katie: And so asking that follow up question to say, you know, what would you like me to understand? Like, I'm not sure that I understand. Can you help me understand where that comes from or what you mean by that or how that shows up in this particular workplace? It's also exactly why we at Essential Partners partner with institutions because we want to be partnering with folks whose futures and lives are intertwined in some way.

[00:39:41] Katie: We oftentimes talk about existing at the cornerstone of community life. Because we want to be in places where people are already in community. You know, I learned how to negotiate when people are like, when you're buying a car, right, when, any kind of relationship that you don't have anything else at stake, it's really hard to tap into your own best self in those moments. But I think what I love about dialogue, what I love about our work as opposed to kind of, Debate or, um, deliberation or other forms of conversation is that we want to create a culture that normalizes differences. That make space for them in healthy and constructive ways again with boundaries about not doing harm to others, right?

[00:40:23] Katie: But to normalize differences and to acknowledge that sometimes there's not going to be common ground. There's not going to be agreement. We can still make decisions. We can still move forward together. We can still be in community together, but we can set aside that pressure to end the conversation where we agree to something as as core to ourselves as our strongest held beliefs, you know?

[00:40:45] Felicia: Great. I think that's also so rich and meaty for folks to be thinking about. Knowing that we have less than a week till the U. S. elections, and a lot of people have been voting already, and some people are waiting. I'm actually waiting till election day itself because I want that experience of going to the polls, but knowing that's coming up very quickly. You mentioned earlier scenario planning around the elections. It sounds like that's something you've been engaging with. And I'll say that on the Inclusion Geeks side, that's something that we have 100 percent been doing. I think our joke is that we have sort of a, a pool of different scenarios.

[00:41:21] Felicia: And then we started going off into one of my favorite topics, which is, well, okay, now what if aliens come down and then how are we going to prep for that? Because it just feels like the, the gates are open. All sorts of things could happen. My feeling is that we're actually not going to know a definitive, clear result right away.

[00:41:38] Felicia: So with that in mind, knowing that there's a lot of heightened tensions coming up, there's elements of safety, whether it's physical safety, psychological safety, emotional safety, all sorts of different safety elements. Knowing that we may not have clear answers right away, how do you think that leaders, folks in general, HR teams, how should we be preparing for, maybe not just the emotional aspects, but maybe some of the more practical potential impacts of the election?

[00:42:09] Felicia: Anything that is top of mind for you on that front? 

[00:42:12] Katie: Yeah, I mean, I think the two disclaimers that I'll make is that I think you're right, that anything's up for grabs, and so it's really hard to plan when any literally anything could happen. And that's really scary and acknowledging that for our teams is really important. But also not planning too much because who knows right? You can't plan for that many unknowns. The other thing the other disclaimer that I'll make is that even though I I lead an organization I'm not an hr expert or a legal expert and there are lots of those implications that I will not speak to but are very real. But I don't want to speak in poor ways.

[00:42:47] Katie: So I'll speak and I'm curious because I know, Felicia, you're also supporting your folks on this. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this as well. But I'll mention two things. One is, I think, holding space for your team to process and come together is really important for our team. We are setting aside some time Wednesday.

[00:43:07] Katie: Um, but we're but knowing, as you said, Felicia, that it's Who knows what we'll know by Wednesday and not know, but we are sitting aside time and in that time, and I will only speak for what we're doing. Each team is going to be different, but we're starting by coming into our bodies. So we're all zoom.

[00:43:23] Katie: So we'll do an off video stretch or a little yoga coming into our bodies, feeling how we're doing in an a embodied practice. We're gonna do some free drawing or building so people have Lego sets, or like coloring books and for people to just process in an nonverbal way. Uh, and then we're gonna go potentially into a dialogue that we call a bridging or bonding dialogue. And in this case, it's really focused on bonding. We're just going to ask, for us, these are the questions that we'll ask just for, for y'all to have, but we're going to ask folks to talk about a story or a moment from the last several weeks where they discovered something about themselves that feels meaningful, like some strength, some internal resources, some community, some knowing or wisdom, and then what it means to them. We'll also ask about that loss, that fear, that grief, and helping others understand what that looks like, how it shows up for them, and then closing by saying, how can you be a resource for others and what resources do you need, right?

[00:44:21] Katie: So we're going to be doing some big processing on our team. Acknowledging that one, we're already a dialogue organization, so it's easy for us to say yes to this. But two, we also support others through the dialogue. And so a lot of our folks are having multiple levels of processing for themselves, but also for the support and the kind of emotional weight they're caring for our partners and clients.

[00:44:42] Felicia: Yeah, that multiple layers and multiple levels is so real. And I think that's such a thing to keep in mind. It's something I remember thinking quite a bit about at various moments of crisis over the last several years is thinking about how, especially for those of us who are in these positions of whether it's, you're the office parent or you're a leader or manager, whatever your position is, a lot of times that multiple layers is you have to first figure out like, how are you feeling? And then do that really quickly within like seconds and then kind of put it to the side and then say, okay, how's my team feeling, how's this person has that and how are we checking in? And so it is a lot of holding space in multiple ways for multiple groups of people and for us, you know, it was going to be.

[00:45:27] Felicia: We have a slightly different approach. I love hearing your approach. I'm like that. I love the drawing aspect. I think anything that gets people into a different creativity mindset is always great. For us, we have given our team election day off so that people can go vote, or volunteer, or take a walk, or huddle under a blanket and watch a comfort show, or whatever it is you need to do during that day, or be glued to the television, which is probably what I'll be doing. Then we also gave our team the day after election day off because we decided, okay, what have we learned from the last two elections? And what we learned in part was that we don't know what's going to happen, and there's going to be a lot of feelings, no matter what. And we also know that things may not come to a conclusion right away.

[00:46:14] Felicia: So there's going to be a lot of uncertainty. So we decided as a team that we didn't want to force ourselves to show up in a way that. Made it seem like, Oh, big things are happening perhaps, but we're still doing a nine to five and we're still answering emails. So what I've been advising my, my clients and partners and vendors and things like that is you don't have to do the same approach that we're doing.

[00:46:39] Felicia: Cause that's what works for us. And we're a very small team. So it makes sense for us, but it doesn't make sense for everyone else. And, you know, we're a services organization like you are, we're not building things that are critical to running platforms or different things. So everyone has a different level of, of need to be on or not.

[00:46:57] Felicia: But what I've been advising clients in particular has been, let's not do massive trainings or mission critical engagements the day after just because at bare minimum, people are probably going to be tired. So let's, let's acknowledge that and be really real about it. And for us, because again, we're so small, we're going to basically, we'll probably text or slack each other if we want to share emotions or feelings and we will offer if people want to get online together, we'll have that available, but we're not going to force it.

[00:47:29] Felicia: So I think the biggest takeaway that I've had and what I, you know, and we, it sounds like we're on the same page. We have our plan, but the biggest takeaway for anyone else who might be listening to this is if you don't have a plan, come up with some kind of plan between now and next week. So that you're prepared just even knowing what you're going to do.

[00:47:46] Felicia: It could be, I'm going to get up, have a cup of coffee and go for a walk in the woods. That's a great plan, but whatever it is, come up with a plan. 

[00:47:53] Katie: I love that. This actually isn't an Essential Partners tool, but one of my friends sent it along. It's from the Building Movement project. But they have a framework that they're calling the Ecosystem of Wellbeing and it includes individual practices, organizational practices, and communities of support.

[00:48:10] Katie: And I love that framing. As you think about your plan for this. The individuals, like what is my own self care practice? What do I need? How can I embed reflection, creativity, joy, kind of, how can I set boundaries? How can I, what do I need? But the organizational, for those of you who are in leadership positions, are like, what's the material support we're giving, like, are we, are we making space for time off?

[00:48:31] Katie: At Essential Partners, we have an unlimited sick policy, and mental health is health. So for us, it's like, okay, if this is what you need, you take it. Are there places for people to talk about feedback or to like process conflict. Do you have someone who's responsible for team well being. Do you have voting opportunities? Some of our partners, some of the people that I know they're like their organizations are also talking about voting plans, but also donating to PACs and all of that kind of stuff. Do you have a place for people to care for each other and in ways that are boundaried and supportive, you know, do you have a place for people to process?

[00:49:05] Katie: So those are the organizational practices. But then we also all have larger communities of support. It might include professional things like coaches and mentors or professional development spaces or peer support networks, but it also could include your friends, your family, your people. And so thinking about how are you going to turn to each other?

[00:49:24] Katie: How are you going to ask for help? How are you going to offer help? I really loved that kind of framework of the individual, organizational, communities of support, because as you're making your plan, giving space for folks to kind of think of on all three of those levels, what they need, and then check in and see how it went. Don't just stop there. This is going to be a long term thing. We're not going to have any answers by Wednesday. And so continuing to support folks continuing to iterate on that support as you learn what works and what doesn't for your team will be really helpful. 

[00:49:54] Felicia: Yeah, love that. Um, we have about six minutes left, so I know we've been actually answering a bunch of the questions that folks submitted beforehand in our conversations already, but Akyanna, I'm going to invite you to jump back in and maybe we can answer a couple questions before we wrap up.

[00:50:09] Akyanna: Yeah, absolutely. A question that we received in the registration is particularly around like the feelings management. So how can you really support and what strategies are there to support the actual emotions that show up? You two have talked a lot about holding space in the moment, but, what do those specific strategies look like past the conversations and when you're in those more one on one conversations about the emotional, um, the emotionality of all this.

[00:50:40] Felicia: Yeah, I can start us off. I'll say we talked a lot about this so I won't spend too much time answering, but a couple other strategies that I personally found helpful is there is a coming back into your body mini activity called dropping anchor.

[00:50:54] Felicia: And it's basically like a breathing activity, where it's similar to what I think you mentioned Katie with what you're planning to do with your team, where you can Google it, or we'll share a link out to this afterwards in a resource, but you basically take deep breaths and you just come back into your own body.

[00:51:10] Felicia: And especially if you're able to plant your feet on the floor, if that's accessible to you, or if you're able to just be in yourself and go through this mentally a couple of times until you've, you've sort of. regulated yourself a little bit. So that's something that I use personally, both with my work as a practitioner and if I need to take a moment. I also will, I'm a big fan of putting up big post it notes around my office.

[00:51:35] Felicia: So you all can't see that because it's all behind here, the screen, but I have a lot of reminders around things like this to just remind myself of ways to check in. And then the other thing I'll mention too, is that, for a lot of you, there are probably already a ton of amazing resources that your organization has.

[00:51:53] Felicia: So whether that's an EAP plan, you mentioned Katie, you know, having a team member, it could be an HR person. There might be some kind of in house psychological support person or, or resources available. So if those are in place, then it could be as simple as sending an email out or a message out to your team, reminding them that these resources exist, providing links, making it really easy for people to access them if they need it.

[00:52:19] Katie: I love all of that. The only thing I'd add are two norms that we use on staff and we encourage a lot of our partners to use as well. One of them is to connect before content and the other is to speak for yourself and your own experiences. So the first one to connect before content.

[00:52:34] Katie: Is to in any conversations that you have, in any meetings that you have, in a little slack, like you can do a quick check, and it could be a word. It can be a pass, right, but it gives people space to name how they're doing and how they're bringing themselves because if someone is really stressed, it's going to show up in the meeting anyway.

[00:52:50] Katie: So you might as well talk about it and be open about it and make empathy and compassion for that. The other is to speak for yourself and your own experience. It allows people to speak in terms of I language. How I'm feeling. I'm not extrapolating to how others are feeling. I'm not putting anyone's experience on them.

[00:53:08] Katie: But it also creates a practice of talking about how you're doing, right? Like you can't bow out of that by saying, you know, we're all really struggling right now. Actually, no, I want to know about you. What, how are you doing right now? How are you feeling right now? And that can create a practice in a place, you know, always with the path rule, but it can create a practice in a space for you to, to have those conversations normally. For those of you who have seen Inside Out, our founders were, as I mentioned, family therapists, and so some things that we often say is like, we want to give space for people to speak for how they're doing, not from how they're doing.

[00:53:42] Katie: So the stress, the fear, the anger will come out. But you don't want people to be so overcome by it that they can't talk about it. They can't speak about it. So we want to give people space to do that. So connect before content, speak for yourself and your own experience.

[00:53:54] Felicia: That's wonderful. I think we have time to do one more question. Um, so Akyanna is going to set this up for us, and we do have another public webinar coming up in December, so keep an eye out for that. That will be coming up through Inclusion Geeks. But Akyanna, what is our last question? 

[00:54:08] Akyanna: Yeah, so our last question goes really in line with what you two were just speaking about. As we go into the election, here's what I'm worried about and would love your thoughts on. We have very open Slack channels letting team members have the conversation has been seen by some folks as the company's stamp of approval on whoever started the conversation. Most people don't participate in the thread. However, we can all see it, even if there are a handful of people engaging. So people can opt out from having the conversation, but they can't opt out from seeing it. What is leadership's responsibility here?

[00:54:40] Katie: Felicia, I can start on this one. So I hear two parts of this question and you can feel free to, to offer whatever you'd like. One of them is leadership stamp of approval and the other is on opting in. Um, so I think for both of those, this is why I really, really strongly encourage one of the first things that we do for folks is create norms that aren't necessarily a lot of people's norms or things like be respectful.

[00:55:04] Katie: But respect means different things to every single person. It looks different. So we try to make our norms, our agreements as observable and as objective as possible. So speaking for yourself and your experience is one that's as observable and objective as possible. It's not always clear cut, but not interrupting somebody, not dehumanizing anyone else, right?

[00:55:23] Katie: Those are, agreements that you can see and notice when they've been breached. So if you're going to have open Slack channels and you're worried about leadership stamp of approval, or kind of buy-in and having moderators actually hold people to those agreements can help create boundaries that everyone understands for the conversation.

[00:55:41] Katie: That's not lead in with assumptions about who believes what or what political stance the company is behind, especially because a lot of company, uh, What's good for the company isn't necessarily what's good for the employees when it comes to these things and so honoring that that gives some boundaries. It also allows people to have some boundaries on how they opt in and how they don't. So we have an experience that like, you can ask a question and then respond on threads. So if the thread isn't one that you want to see, isn't one that you want to be involved in, you don't have to open the thread and you can see the question. That's our own way of doing things. But again, like just creating the act of creating those boundaries with people, not for people, but with people can help create that sense of people being taken care of in ways that they want to be taken care of. That platinum rule, like treat others the way they want to be treated, not the way you want to be treated.

[00:56:34] Felicia: Yeah, I love that. And just in the interest of time, the only other thing I'll add into that is simply that even if you haven't done these kinds of norm settings up to this point, you can always do it A new. It's, in my mind, okay to be upfront and honest and just transparent and say, Hey, we noticed these kinds of conversations are taking place in these channels. We don't want to stop them. However, we do want to acknowledge that just because people have these conversations does not necessarily mean that leadership or the organization is giving a thumbs up approval. So we don't want to stop you from having these discussions. These are the norms that we've agreed to, or that we'd like you to agree to.

[00:57:11] Felicia: But we just want to be transparent about how we want you all who are looking at this to understand what it means that these conversations are taking place. So I'm a big believer in just being really upfront about that. All right. So one of our norms for Inclusion Geeks is we like to end on time. So we're just a few minutes over. But thank you so much, Katie, for having this discussion. I know we could just keep talking all day long. You've got to go. We've got to go. Folks have to jump off. We will be following up with more resources and links and things like that afterwards. So thank you all for being here. 

[00:57:46] Katie: Thanks, Felicia. Thanks y'all for being here. Good luck. We're always here if we can help. 

[00:57:50] Felicia: Yes, same here. Good luck, everyone. We'll see you on the other side.