The Long Game of DEI Work from a Certified B Corp Perspective with Lisa Hannum

(00:06 - 00:16) Rachel Murray: Hi, and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast, where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work, making the world a better and brighter place. I am Rachel. (00:16 - 00:19) Felicia Jadczak: And I'm Felicia. All right, let's get into it.

(00:19 - 00:40) Felicia Jadczak: Yeah, we got so there's no dearth of things to talk about. But today, I want to get into a new story that just came across my virtual desk and yours as well, which is girls in tech is closing after 17 years, the nonprofit working on supporting girls getting that pipeline nice and

(00:41 - 01:15) Rachel Murray: Nice and heavy. I was going to say heavy, juicy, fat, thick, whatever, how we want to call it. Robust. Robust. Yes. Thank you. And we're recording this on July 9th. And this is just the latest of many organizations shutting down, including Women in Tech. Currican Tessa is alive, but sort of archived a little bit. There are other organizations that are certainly struggling as well in our former space. So Felicia, how did we get our name for those listeners who may not know us?

(01:15 - 02:49) Felicia Jadczak: Yeah, super, super quick recap. So we actually originally started off life as Boston Girl Geek Dinners, and then we transitioned to She Geeks Out. And the reason for all of this is because we started life not as a DEI consulting firm, but as a community and events organization for women in tech. or I actually should say women in STEM and beyond. And women was very broadly defined as well. But this is definitely a space that's really near and dear to our hearts. It's a space that allowed us to come together to begin with. That's how we met, throwing an event together. And that's really what was the primary driver of Inclusion Geeks for the first eight years, eight or nine years of our life. What is time? I know. And then it is confusing because we technically have a couple different like anniversaries that we can celebrate, but roughly eight to nine years or so. And, you know, I think it's just, um, it is a little depressing to be honest. We ourselves have morphed quite a bit over the last four years. during post-pandemic, however you want to slice and dice it. But we have really moved away from offering events for women in STEM and offering community, not because we don't want to or because we don't think it's important. But honestly, the energy and the support from other organizations and corporations is just not there anymore. And so I know you and I have talked a lot about We still very much see a need for this, but this is a new world order that we're operating in.

(02:49 - 04:16) Rachel Murray: Yeah, and I think too for those who don't know this side of our work, I mean, when we said that we did events for women in tech and tech adjacent roles. It was, we were doing three events a month. We were booked out a year in advance. Our events were sold out. Our sponsors included Spotify, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon, all of the big Google, all of the huge companies, HubSpot, just really impressive, amazing companies. And they wanted to hire from our community and it was a wonderful thing. And so we were one of of many organizations that were doing this work. And it is interesting, I think what Felicia said is absolutely what you said is completely correct. You know, sponsors is really interesting after, you know, obviously the pandemic changed so much. We kind of thought that we'd get back into it, you know, we sort of, we worked to bring it back last year. We put some real effort behind it. And what was interesting was not only did we not get sponsors, we actually got ghosted. I know. Rude. It was really surprising because these were companies that we actually had relationships with for years and years. And I understand that folks might feel embarrassed about not being able to have the budget anymore to do this work. But of course, for us on the other side, it's always nice to know because we're spending so much energy trying to make Fetch happen, and it was not.

(04:17 - 04:19) Felicia Jadczak: That was very much not happening.

(04:19 - 04:55) Rachel Murray: It was so not happening. And so that's the sponsor side. And then when we're starting to think about on the community side, it also changed a lot. I mean, the way our events looked was a lot of times people would come from work and hit up the, because we would always have the events at the office space of the sponsoring company. They would go there, maybe bring a colleague or a friend and have a drink and watch some talks and then go home from there. And the dynamic has shifted so much for so many people where now we're asking people to, you know, put on real clothes from below the waist, you know.

(04:56 - 06:57) Felicia Jadczak: It's a very different play because you're like, Hey, so I know you work from home and you may be looking for a job, but you don't want to go into the office. But anyway, put on some hard clothes, go outside, expose yourself to whatever's out there. Go into an office that you don't really care about, meet people, have fun, because there is a very distinct need for community. And that's what our community was telling us. They were like, we miss people. We miss seeing people. They really want that. In person. In person. So that is still a need, but go to an office of a company that you may want to work for, but you don't want to go to their office. So it's not the same draw. It's not the same play. And then go back home when you were there to begin with. So it just doesn't make sense anymore. And, you know, virtual events, we did a lot. We tried it. It's tricky because everyone's online all the time. And it's very fatiguing. And there is no You can definitely replicate in-person experiences virtually, and there are really a whole host of ways to do it. You can do it well, but it's not the same at the end of the day. That's what I always say to clients, even with trainings. I'm like, you'll get a good experience. It'll be amazing. you will learn. But it's just never going to be exactly the same as an in-person experience because you don't have the vibe. You don't have the people. You don't get the body language or the sense of the space. And so I think that it's just been really challenging. But I think to the point that you were talking about the sponsors and the lack of desire there, That's a huge issue, right? And I think that's really why we're seeing a lot of these groups shut down because like Women Who Code, Girls in Tech, they were really reliant on these tech companies and these big corporations helping to sponsor and fund them. And these companies don't want to do that anymore.

(06:58 - 07:54) Rachel Murray: Yeah. And I think the other piece of this too, and then back to the community side is I think that the pandemic taught a lot of us that, you know, work is transactional. And I think before that it was very much about hustle culture, growing in your career, wanting to get ahead. And I think a lot of folks have been thinking about this differently. Like a job is a job and my life is not my job and my life is going to be fulfilled outside of my job. And my job is about getting a paycheck. And, you know, I think there's, there's that piece of it as well. I think about like career Contessa, you know, it's like, why there's that struggle. It's just that, that hustle culture isn't there anymore. And it's actually great. Right. That we're recognizing the balance is important. Um, that so many of us are recognizing that sort of the wall has been pulled over, um, off of the wall has been pulled off. What do we, the veil has been lifted. That's an expression.

(07:54 - 08:03) Felicia Jadczak: Well, there's multiple expressions. That's what I'm working on. The world has been pulled over our eyes before. Now it's being pulled out. That's right.

(08:03 - 08:21) Rachel Murray: That's it. That's it. Because we're all sheep. We're all lemmings and sheep. Yeah, I think that that has changed a lot for people as well. So it's sort of those two big factors making it that. And so I'm really glad that we offer this other service that we do that we started in 2017.

(08:21 - 11:00) Felicia Jadczak: Listen, we wouldn't be talking to you all if we didn't have the other services. Yeah, you know, it's just, and of course we could probably spend days and days talking about all the various factors because there's also, you know, we've seen there was the great resignation, right? Then there was a backlash against that. A lot of companies, and we're talking about a lot of tech companies in particular, of course there are other companies out there besides tech, but that's a huge sweet spot, especially in the Boston area where we came up. And then our other location pre-pandemic, we're in New York and San Francisco. So again, big industries for each of those locations. And a lot of tech companies really overextended themselves and they hired too many people. And there were a lot of people who had these cushy jobs paying a lot of money who weren't really doing much. Or a lot of tech companies were also hiring defensively. So they were hiring people not because they had a need or a job. They just didn't want that talent going to a competitor. So they would hire people in and just be like, Hey, park yourself here at this desk and have fun. Enjoy the free ping pong and sushi and whatever else we're offering you internally. So, you know, like there's definitely been a bit of course correction, which is part of it, but yeah, it's, you know, I will say like, it is a little depressing because a lot of these organizations, we all came up together. Right. Like they, a lot of these groups were started roughly around the same time as we got started. And. It's great that we're still here and we're still talking to y'all, but it is sad to see folks falling away. And then, you know, I'm going to pull in the other piece of it too, which is when we first started doing our DEI work, my joke was always, you know, we have the binders full of women and, you know, call back to Mitt Romney back in the day. And I used to say, and we used to say that women was sort of like the gateway into discussing diversity in a broader sense because a lot of organizations started with gender and women in particular, and then they were like, Oh, let's talk about rates let's talk about age we'll talk about other, you know, identity groups, but women was the first point of them doing that work. I think we're seeing now an evolution where now women are, you know, it's they've already kind of started getting rid of all the other identity group supports. And so now it's going back to gender. That's not great because that's, you know, been a very default place for a lot of organizations to feel good about themselves with the quote unquote diversity work for a very long time. So the fact that we're seeing pullback from women as in gender as well, I think, does not bode super well.

(11:01 - 11:35) Rachel Murray: Yeah, I agree. As much as I'd like to think it's because, hey, we fixed the problems. I think it's safe to say they're even, they're worse than they have been in quite some time. So yeah, in several ways. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting time and this coupled with the DEI backlash, even though we are seeing that there is still appetite for the work, the language is just changing. Who knows what will show up in months and years ahead. We'll just keep sharing our thoughts. We sure will.

(11:35 - 12:08) Felicia Jadczak: Stay tuned. Stay tuned. All right. We got to get into our show today, so let's switch gears. Our guest today is an amazing woman, Lisa Hannum. She's the president and CEO of Beehive Strategic Communication. So Lisa came on the show. She shared her insights and views on DEI work as a consultancy and through a leadership lens. So we talked about how we started working with Beehive a couple of years ago, what their DEI journey has looked like. And we also talk a little bit about one of my favorite topics, which is the difference and overlap between DEI work and crisis work and a lot more.

(12:09 - 12:36) Rachel Murray: And before we welcome Lisa, did you know that we have a ton of resources available online? You can check them out at www.sgolearning.com. If you want to learn more about ways to mitigate bias in the workplace and the world, we have got you covered. Sign up for our mailing list at shegeeksout.com forward slash podcast for free access to one of our many courses. Might we suggest psychological safety in the workplace and learn more about what else we have to offer.

(12:37 - 12:46) Felicia Jadczak: All right, let's get into it. Welcome, Lisa. Hi, Lisa. So glad to have you join us today. I'm so happy to be here.

(12:46 - 13:05) Felicia Jadczak: Well, let's just jump right into it because we got a lot to talk about. So you are the president and CEO of Beehive Strategic Communication. We are thrilled to have you here. You are also a past client. We're going to talk all about that. But let's start off with your origin story. So tell us about who you are, your background, your journey, how you got to your current role.

(13:06 - 16:50) Lisa Hannum: Well, I'm going to start with the dreaded phrase I was born in, because it really is important to my origin story and how I got to where I am today. So I was born and raised in a small town in North Dakota. So I was first generation in my family to attend college. And I crossed the border from North Dakota to Minnesota for school. And the Twin Cities has been my professional and personal home ever since. And that's been a while now. So I was lucky in that when I went to college, I had a teacher who spotted a writing ability in a freshman English class. I had no idea what I was going to do. And she literally took me by the hand and walked me over to the journalism department at my sturdy state school in Minnesota. And I ended up majoring in journalism, public relations, marketing, and speech communication. So I, and I've spent my entire career in and around these territories. So, but it was, you know, by the grace of a teacher who, a professor that took some interest in us, wet behind the ears kid from North Dakota that I ended up sort of on this trajectory. So it's been a really, really fascinating career with so much change, over and over thousands of percent of change, which has been really, really energizing for me and has kept me so engaged and so passionate about what we do for our business and what we do for client organizations. But the biggest shift came for me about a dozen years into my career. And that was when I became a mom. You two are probably not quite back in that era as I am. But this was back in the day where it was really challenging to try to have flexibility to be the parent, I wanted to be, and also work at in a pretty hard driving agency sort of environment so I couldn't negotiate a return to work schedule that I felt was going to work for my family so I did what every overly confident 30-year-old does, and I quit my job. My husband was a freelance creator or director at the time. So overnight, we became a no-income family. With an infant and the nanny, we had already hired. So the business plan was to fetch a bulletin board out of a closet, put it on the wall of the guest room, and I posted two things there, my mortgage payment and a photo of my daughter. And that was 26 years ago, and I've never looked back. So that is the origin story. And I think that that big shift really is what opened up my view and my commitment to creating a work culture and environment that would never allow for someone to feel that they could not negotiate their personal life, especially as a woman and a mother, which I think We have different sorts of points of view and different responsibilities. I think we're sort of hardwired that way when it comes to children. So I decided that now it was time to really put my money in my mouth and my actions to work and to create a company that would be better.

(16:50 - 17:17) Rachel Murray: Lisa, wow. What an origin story. You know, I can see why you do this for a living. Beautifully articulated. So thank you so much for sharing that. And I would just love to get into the work that you do. I mean, it's wonderful. Obviously, we feel really connected to, you know, what you do and who you are. A woman founded, owned, led, obviously. So that's wonderful. Would just love to hear more about your mission and the work that you do at Beehive.

(17:18 - 22:03) Lisa Hannum: So we are a certified women-owned business. I feel like we might be one of the OGs since 2008. Our leadership team is all female, and the four of us have built this organization together, and of course, by extension, through our team and our clients. But this is the 19th year that our four-woman leadership team has been together working on this business. which is uncommon. And I am grateful every day that my three partners make that choice. I know it's a choice. We're also a certified B Corporation. And so we'll talk a little bit more about that later. But it's important to know that that is our operating model. And we've been certified as a B Corp since 2018. That underpins who we are as a business and how we operate strategically. So we are a purpose-driven company. We are focused on using the power of communication to build better businesses for a better world. That is our North Star. It sits at the top of our company strategy, our business plan, whatever you would like to call it. But that combined with our values drive every decision we make about the business. Our values, we view and we encourage our client organizations to think about it through this lens as well. That is the behavior contract between the company and all of our people. And our people include our employees, our partners that help us facilitate this business every day. We rely on and partner with many organizations. We think about our clients and we think about the communities, the communities that are professional communities, but also the communities that we live in, the communities where we have a footprint. So we sort of wrap those around, you know, and think about our people, our partners, our clients, and our communities. Our values. are growth-minded, equity, action, accountability, and well-being. Well-being is the foundation to everything. Without that, we can't live those other values. But we're very, very clear with the people that we serve that this is a behavior contract. Here's how we articulate what the company's responsibility is, and here's what we ask from you. So that values understanding and clarity about those values and our purpose really helps our company make decisions, but it also helps all those people who are considering beehive make decisions too. So we believe that clarity is the greatest gift that you can provide in any relationship. And this is a relationship. So. by being very, very specific, it helps people be either magnetized toward us or say maybe those values aren't in alignment with our business or me and what my professional and personal goals might be. So we believe in the beauty of self-selection. And I don't mean that you would self-select to us or away from us as a brand in any judgmental sort of way. But we're not going to be a fit for everybody. And that is OK. And I think the sooner people realize that they, too, need to find organizations, causes, people, relationships that really do feed their values, the happier the world is going to be and the more progress we can all make together. So that is how we kind of center the company, and then the services that we deliver focus on strategic communications so we work, almost exclusively with C suite leaders and then their direct reports. Sometimes we work deeply into organizations to help organizations solve really complex problems, but then we want to empower those organizations to be able to carry forward the work we're doing together. So the thread is always through the power of communication, whether it's crisis management, change management, impact strategy, brand, traditional marketing and PR or digital strategy and implementation, a lot of work in org culture. So we work in these big territories where communication is the through line to solving what's usually kind of a complex issue that organizations are facing. Does that make sense?

(22:04 - 23:46) Felicia Jadczak: It all makes sense, Lisa. I'm just like nodding on the back end here. I'm sure I can speak for Rachel as well. And, you know, I think a lot of what you're sharing resonates with us because, you know, we talk a lot about values and being a similar mission-driven, values-driven organization. I think what you're saying is so important because it is that self-selection idea, again, not in like a good or bad way, but just in the sense of this is it, right? Like, this is your company. This is how you operate. If it doesn't fit, Then it doesn't fit but let's not force it because they're going to be other folks out there where it will be a really good fit and I think that's so important. And that's a lesson that Rachel and I have, I feel, come to learn and relearn over and over again in our time being in business in that similar kind of mental space around how you project out. and how you attract in who and what you want to work with. So yes, really good stuff there. I hope our listeners are also going to be resonating with that too. I want to talk a little bit about your DEI work because that's how we actually came to initially connect and know you all and your journey, and it really has been a journey. So you had already started doing some of your own internal work. We first started officially working together, I believe, in 2022. But you, I think, had started doing this, and especially because you're a Minnesota-based company. Of course, we all know George Floyd was murdered in Minnesota in 2020. I'm sure that must have had a huge impact on you, but I'd love for you to maybe talk a little bit more about your DEI approach, your journey, how you came to start doing your own work, and then we can talk more about how we work together and what that looks like for you today.

(23:46 - 29:15) Lisa Hannum: If you think again about my origin story of why I left a very comfortable partnership at an agency, It was very people-centered reason, right? So we've always been a very people-centered business. There have been a lot of people who've gone through a lot of personal change and have remained at Beehive for two decades through all of that. So we've always been very people-centered. And so we've got this strong foundation, we've done a lot of work we've been recognized more than 30 times nationally regionally and locally for our people practices are you know how we approach HR. our culture, and our financial transparency. All of those sorts of things are critically important to folks when they're thinking about what organization they want to hitch their wagon to, whether it's their own career or it's a client organization. And so that's always been foundational. But it really went into hyperdrive when we decided to become B Corp certified in 2018. So I'll just take a minute on B Corp certification. It's becoming more and more well known in the United States. It's a global standard. There's about 8,000 companies globally and 100 different countries that are B Corp certified. What that means is that we are businesses that have gone through a rigorous assessment to determine that we meet the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance, public transparency, and legal accountability. to ensure that we, our business operations, are balancing what's good for people, planet, and profit in that order. When you do the first two well, profits flow. So that is our operating model. Being a certified B Corp goes very, very deep and really, really stretches you to make sure that you are actually best practice and world class on a global standard in many, many areas. But in our worker space, it certainly is in DE&I. So that journey from just being a company that knows what's right and is guided by doing the right thing, because it's right for people, and for clients, and for the planet, and it's just the right thing to do, really accelerated with some beautiful in-depth structure that B Corp certification gave us. We can talk about why you should or shouldn't and how you start at some point if you'd like to during our time today. But this was really became our operating model. So now fast forward, came 2020. So in March, it was the pandemic, the beginning of the pandemic, which shut down everything. So when organizations and human beings were reeling everywhere, we had the murder of George Floyd in our hometown. in May of 2020. So while the whole world experienced the murder of George Floyd and everything that developed in the aftermath of that, it was here. It was in our hometown. And that, I think, took on a different level of accountability for organizations that were based here. and an urgency that we had not experienced before. This could no longer be at a pace that was for our comfort. How hard can you push? How fast can we move and help our clients move? Not fast enough. So we started to do a really significant amount of work and go very, very deep. in education and knowledge building in the areas of social justice, equality, diversity and inclusion. We did a lot of work on our own. And that was a starting point, really. So we reached out to Inclusion Geeks in 2022 because we knew that our social impact commitment was just too broad. And when it's too broad, it's really challenging to take measurable action because it'll collapse of its own weight. So we reached out to Inclusion Geeks and you really helped us to get very, very clear about what our social impact commitment was and to really weave in the B Corp standard of business must be a force for good. And we have the power to drive meaningful social change. centering clearly on our purpose and our values, really articulating who we stand for and who we stand up for. So it's less about what we don't believe, and it's all about what we do believe. And that's our focus. It's not that we believe that we should be trying to write the future of every organization. In Minnesota, a big fishing area, we say, mind your own bobber. So our first job was to mind our own bobber, right?

(29:15 - 29:25) Felicia Jadczak: Can you quickly explain to us, because I will be honest, I'm not a big fisher, also not from Minnesota. What is a bobber? I think I know, but just great question.

(29:27 - 32:55) Lisa Hannum: So when you cast your fishing line into the water, there's usually something that sits on top of the water and bobs around. It's often a little ball of some kind. And when the fish bites, the bobber goes under the water. So your job as a fisher person is to watch your own bobber. Pay attention to your own before you're going to lose your fish. Got it. So we needed to do some work there. And hopefully, that as we did our own work, that's going to have a ripple effect. We believe deeply that activating our own intentions and modeling for our people, our partners, our clients, and our communities, what that work looks like is where it all begins. So that is the deep work that we did with all of you. You also helped us to really create an actionable plan with really solid metrics and benchmarks. And then you helped us to completely redesign our recruitment process to ensure that we were living our values and really moving into an area that as a company of, when you look at our website, you will see a company of led by four white women of privilege. No question, we are clear. We also have a statement on our website letting you know that our team represents more diversity, and it's also very, very important to us that we keep doing the work. So you helped us to really anchor our best intentions into an actionable plan that we could measure and be accountable for. Remember, one of our five company values is accountability. So that was the work that we did with Inclusion Geeks over the course of about a year. We implemented all of that work. We tend to do this work in terms of building implementing, holding, and then advancing. So I'm confident that you'll be hearing from us again, ladies, in 2020, second half of 2024, early 2025. But I think that's also a message to all of your listeners, is that this is a long journey. And to be able to help organizations and leaders of organizations understand That the long game is what matters for every organization. We can't run our businesses, quarter to quarter month to month shareholder meeting to shareholder meeting anymore. So, that short game will not ensure long-term success for any business any longer. It's tempting. So I think when we do that, for those of us that are the voice and the activators and the leaders of this work inside of our organizations, and generally speaking, gratefully, we're now doing this work at the highest levels of the organization, which I think for many companies is still fairly new. It's just critical that we create expectations for making continuous progress, measuring continuous progress over time. This is not fast work, but when we are consistently making change, that's how the change sticks and that's how it happens.

(32:55 - 35:18) Felicia Jadczak: Yeah, I love that. First of all, it's great to hear it from your perspective, Lisa, because, you know, we don't always get this kind of follow up with a lot of our clients. So it's really nice to hear that. And I just cannot, you know, double click or applaud more the comment around the long term nature of the work. We say that all the time, it can be a hard concept to really internalize, especially around this kind of urgent work that it feels like you have to do everything immediately yesterday. And I do want to note to this, just for our listeners and I don't even know if you know this Rachel but folks from your team had actually reached out to us, I want to say in either late 2020 or early 2021. And at that point, because of how everything had just exploded with, you know, out of the pandemic and George Floyd's murder, we were so unbelievably swamped. We didn't have the bandwidth to support in all honesty. And so I remember having some early conversations and just saying, you know, we're not going to be able to help you at this precise moment, but looking forward, whatever the timeline was, and your team said, OK, great, we're going to start doing the work ourselves and we'll come back to you when you're ready. And that's also, I think, a rarity. A lot of clients or potential folks out there will say, oh, if you're not able to help me right now, I'll find someone who can or I just won't do the work at all. And so that's what I think was also really unique about working with you and the Beehive team because you had already done a lot of work on your own. And so what was really great and interesting from my perspective as a consultant and facilitator was coming in, not having to start from the ground up, but working with what you had already been doing and helping you all refine your own work. And so unlike a lot of other work that we do with clients where it's more focused on training and workshops and webinars and things like that. This was more, you know, to your point and what you all do, communication, refining the message, refining the processes. We looked at your employee handbook. We did a lot of that kind of work. And so I think that's also great to highlight because a lot of, I think a lot of companies out there and maybe some of your clients even think, oh, I have to do this DEI work. And they have a very sort of narrow view or idea of what that might mean. And it's a lot more holistic. So I appreciate you hitting on some of those points there.

(35:18 - 37:47) Lisa Hannum: I think the difference with this work is that over time, it becomes not what you do. This is not a project to complete. It becomes who you are as an organization. And when you do the type of work that we did with Inclusion Geeks, you are embedding it into your operating model so that it literally becomes who you are. This is how we behave. It's how we make decisions. It's the work we prioritize. And when you look at it as something to check off of a to-do list, That's where organizations, I believe, struggle with understanding that this is an ongoing foundational priority to your business. And I think that, you know, we're at this place now where what is on fire gets attention, right? So if DEI does not feel like it is on fire, I would say globally, in the United States, in your area, you have not just had a crisis in your own company that is causing you to take an action for myriad reasons, internally and externally. It can be really tempting to just lose track of it or to back burner it or to strip the resources. And that's a short-term decision. And this is playing for the long game. And it's really, really critical to think about the generations of workers that are coming. And to every piece of data tells us with absolute confirmation, the generations that are entering our workforce right now will not tolerate racial injustice, inequity, they will not tolerate it. So whatever safe haven people think that they may have now, or leaders may believe they've got a reprieve of some kind, proceed with caution and eyes wide open. This is a permanent shift in expectations.

(37:49 - 38:18) Rachel Murray: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And it's funny because I just came up with an analogy that I think I shared with Felicia recently. So we're talking about it, especially in this time where people really focused on it for a few years, then they gave up, you know, for a variety of reasons. And I felt like, you know, it's like, it's like everyone was on a diet and not realizing that this is actually a lifestyle change. That's what this is, right? This is ongoing. This isn't just a one and done.

(38:18 - 38:51) Lisa Hannum: Yeah, we like to think of this Rachel is it is a macro shift trend. It is not a lifestyle. It's not just a diet. They're both short term here. This is a macro change on the planet. And it's going to be decades. And I can tell you, certainly from our point of view, again, because it's who we are, it's not something to be done. It never stops ever.

(38:51 - 38:58) Rachel Murray: Absolutely. And I'm going to kick it over to Felicia because we have a question that I am so excited to hear the answer to.

(39:00 - 40:46) Felicia Jadczak: Well, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier when you were talking about what Beehive does and the kind of work that you focus on. And one of the areas that you all hone in on is crisis communication and crisis management. And I'd love to have you talk a bit more about that, especially with what that's looked like, both for you, I guess, internally, because I'm sure there must have been some internal approaches to some of the, I mean, you know, pick your poison, right? All the different things we've been going through the last couple of years and then working with your clients. And the reason why we're so interested in learning more about how you're experiencing this and thinking about this and working with your clients is because we have been thinking so much in the last, probably a couple of years or so, about the relationship between DEI work and crisis communication or crisis management. My personal belief, and one that Rachel shares, of course, too, because we share a brain and pretty much everything else, is that they're very closely aligned, but DEI work and DEI professionals are not trained crisis communicators. And so I think some of what the kerfuffles or missteps or issues we've seen in the DEI space especially in the last year or so. And I'm thinking, you know, things that are happening or have happened around the Israel-Palestine communications when that initially came out last year. A lot of DEI professionals were put into these positions of having to manage in real time breaking news and major issues that they honestly were just are not prepared for. And so I'm curious if that's come up or what kind of discussions or trends you've been seeing in the last year or so in this crisis phase or how you're thinking about that relationship.

(40:46 - 45:19) Lisa Hannum: From a crisis communication or an issues communication perspective, there's really been three things that have been happening over the last couple of years, we'll say. The first and most prevalent that we experience with our clients and just the universe at large, is a real discernible shift in how organizations respond to social justice issues. So I'm just going to take that as one big category, and you can put 20 issues or micro social justice issues underneath that, okay? So it used to be completely acceptable for organizations of all sizes. But let's just take large publicly traded companies to steer clear of talking about any social justice issue, right? We don't comment on fill in the blank. Today, employees and all of your stakeholders expect organizations to take a stand. And there's really increased constant scrutiny here, especially if there's any perceived misstep, which can quickly escalate into a major crisis. So to your point, Felicia, when we see organizations respond in a way that seems unplanful, that's because it is. So the most important thing organizations have to do right now is to understand that it's not a matter of when they will step into an issue or a crisis. It is how severe will it be? How fast will it move? There's no question that you will face these things over and over again. The way to make sure you're prepared to step in or to lead in an emerging issue is to do the work in advance. tie everything you're doing to your purpose and your values. That will tell you how to be prepared to respond. It will be your roadmap to what's important for me to comment on or my organization. Where do I not have a reason to insert myself? And how can we be prepared to be clear and then accountable for our words and our actions as it relates to the topic at hand? So I'll take, for example, organizations that are questioning whether or not they have a voice in a particular issue. So I'm going to take, you mentioned the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And so we've done a lot of work with organizations since last October. And in fact, some of them prior, because if they're thinking about the diversity of the audiences that they serve and exist for, you've already are thinking about these potential tensions and conflicts you're dealing with diverse cultures in your workplace, you're already making spaces to develop knowledge and understanding and facilitate conversations that center on issues like what has been developing for thousands of years in between the Palestinian people and the Israeli people, right? So if you have not moved into this work, if you do not have populations that you serve or you don't have a direct footprint in a certain area of the world, for example, you're going to want to think about, are we rushing into something where our voice is not auditive and we are reacting to be performative? I think that organizations end up erring on the side of Well, we have to talk about social justice issues and therefore we must have an opinion, a comment on everything, or we say nothing at all and we pray like hell that it flies right over. Neither of those is the right position to take. They will not benefit your organization.

(45:19 - 45:52) Rachel Murray: And I feel like that is exactly the rub. Like I think that that is where organizations really struggle. It's like, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. And how do you actually approach it? But if you don't have a clear, understanding of where you stand in relation to how to communicate, just in general, a plan for anything, it's just really hard. Because you're going to get, I think, I guess I'm curious, like, what do you think about the fact that like, there's just no way to get away from being criticized?

(45:52 - 46:31) Lisa Hannum: I will say from a leader's chair, I think it's a bit of a cop out. So I am always anchoring. I'll just speak for our business. I'm always anchoring to our purpose and to our values. I have more influence and more control than about 95% of people on the planet. I am not a leader of a Fortune 100 company. I would put the 5% up there, that remaining 5%. We're leaders of organizations because we signed up to do the hard work.

(46:31 - 46:44) Felicia Jadczak: Oh, my God. That's like the pull quote, Lisa. I need to have that printed out and given out to all the leaders that we work with. Sorry, I had to jump in on that. And it's OK. That was such a statement.

(46:44 - 48:54) Lisa Hannum: I missed the memo where this was going to be easy. I didn't get that. Yeah. I have no expectation this is going to be easy. What it should be is meaningful and transformative. That's what it should be. That's what our clients expect. That's what our team expects. That's what our communities need from businesses. Increasingly, humans have lost their trust in government institutions, whether it's education or governments at every level. And where are they turning to? They're close personal relationships and they expect more from businesses, those that they work for, and those that they choose to do business with. That's the second area. that we see as being a really, really critical crisis expectation. And that's that expectations are rising, leaders, from your customers, your employees, and from the communities that you do business in. So people want to work for and buy from organizations that believe what they believe. And here's the uncomfortable fact, everyone, act accordingly. So when you are proactive in making decisions about your purpose or mission, your values, your policies, your processes, what you stand up for, who you stand up for, and why you're anchored into that, It is always OK for an organization to say, we're not an authority or an expert on X, Y, Z. What I can tell you is that our values of accountability and action and equity tell us that there's always a bridge to talk about where you do fit in the conversation. But rushing to put yourself into the center of something that is not your business in any regard and also retreating in fear are not options for organizations anymore. it will not be tolerated.

(48:54 - 49:00) Rachel Murray: This is so beautiful. Phylicia is literally like taking notes in the background, like this quote, this quote, this quote.

(49:00 - 50:09) Felicia Jadczak: It's so good because Lisa, I can't tell you how many times I talk with leaders of organizations and have this exact conversation. I just literally had this conversation not two weeks ago with a CEO of a company who is also super mission-driven, very values-driven, like doing all the great things. It's a great culture. And they're really struggling with, do they say anything? And their position is, we don't really want to. And the employees are having feelings about that. And I'm just loving what you're saying, because I think it's so important. And I wish, well, not wish, I have you on record. So I'm going to be pulling out your words so I can really recreate that, because I think it's so well said, and it's so important. And you're right. It's not about signing up to be leaders and you just get the cushy whatever it is that you signed up for. It's about also leaning into the hard work. And it is hard work. I can't think of a harder time it's been leading this company with Rachel than the last three, four years. It's been so hard. But that's why we're doing this work because we want to lean into the mess. And that's what it's all about.

(50:09 - 51:17) Rachel Murray: Yeah. and if it's okay I would just love to add and I think that you know what is happening in Israel, Palestine, Gaza right now it is a really prime example of saying okay you know I feel like it is important to say something and whatever I'm going to say is probably going to anger someone, whether that is someone on my team, a potential client or an existing client or someone. And I think where I want to just sort of dig in a little bit is like the concept of it's okay. to not please everyone. That's part of the work too, right? Because if it's in alignment with our values, if this is how we feel, we have to accept the fact that we are going to have a difference of opinion with someone else. And it's going to be up to that person to choose whether they are going to be in alignment with us or not and articulate that. And I think that that's just one of the challenges of this work and just an acceptance of that. Am I like totally off base on this?

(51:18 - 55:49) Lisa Hannum: No, you're right on base actually, Rachel. I think that for a company, what's really critical is that they do an analysis, a deep dive on, you know, if we have interests, if the company has interests, whether it's internal interests, it could be our people, or we have an external interest or both. We need to really be able to do a deep dive to be able to I would always suggest proactively tell our story, explain our position, explain why. So we're always looking, when we're talking to our employees, when we're talking to stakeholders for our business or other client businesses, it is the what, the why, and the so what. What does that mean to you, to the organization, to the markets that we serve? It is an amazing thing when we stop at just sync them back up. It is amazing to watch what happens when we don't just simply stop at, this is the fact, that's the way it is, carry on and do your job. So if we can help, I'll just say our teams, our customers understand that this is the issue, this is the action that we're taking, the what, this is why we're taking the action, here's how that will look, this is what you'll experience, and this is the so what does it mean to you, to our organization, and to the populations that we serve. Human beings are thoughtful and rational and emotional, and we can learn and grow. And we can also say, I may not agree with the company's position, but I do understand that it's not going to be possible for us to cease operations in a certain part of the world on a dime. Because other parts of the world are expecting production we employ thousands of people in that part of the world that may be the only economic stability that those thousands of people have right now, you. But if leaders can take the time to explain the why and why it matters. I think you'll find that the response is wholly different than one side shouting at the other side or one side nodding their head and simply retreating and then making choices to leave the organizations, no longer be a customer, whatever those options might be for them. So. Take the time to explain and tell the story. You know, that's a big issue, but if you take things like return to work policies, okay, that's one that we're, is this ever going to stop? The answer is no, because we're just going to keep arguing over something that turns the clock backward, right? So there is nothing back there. We can only focus on now and future. That doesn't mean that people won't go back to an office just because that was passed. It means we have an opportunity to completely redesign the way work is done and how it's done. And we're beginning to see now that employees who said, no, I want fully remote, some people still are enjoying that if they are supported in doing that. But other people are starting to say, I really see the benefit of connecting with human beings. And they're looking for something more. So rather than trying to force a future, we have an opportunity to really move into that future with our people. And so again, it's opening up the aperture to listen, to learn, and to make decisions that meet those rising expectations from our customers, our people in our communities, and still serve the needs of the business. Those things are mutually possible.

(55:49 - 56:13) Rachel Murray: That's beautifully said. Thank you so much for indulging me on that unauthorized line of questioning. I would love to switch a little bit and talk about something else that you are certified as WeBank. We are also a WeBank certified company and would love for you to share a bit about what WeBank is and what your experience has been with it.

(56:13 - 01:00:42) Lisa Hannum: Well, congratulations to you, because speaking of rigorous assessments, that is not an easy one. But I always say about weaving certification, WOSB, Women Own Small Business to the federal government, and even B Corp, the benefit of these rigorous certification processes is they help us think about how to be a better business. And we are all looking to do better. They give us these frameworks, especially small businesses that are essentially no charge to us to access the framework. A lot of the work that has to be done really requires changes in policies, procedures, education. It's knowledge building more so than a financial outlay to earn these certifications. It's difficult sometimes to feel like you have the support that you need to really advance your business, develop your business, be best practice. So these certifications and pursuing them really will help you do that. Even if you pursue it and you somehow don't qualify or you don't qualify yet, I'll say that for B Corps, there are tens of thousands of pending applications for B Corps. Organizations get into it and they go, we've got some work to do here. But you can always come back to the assessment. That's what they want you to do, is to ask those hard questions. And sometimes it's not even a hard question. It's like, oh, we really should have this written as a policy. May we do it? But we need to write this as a policy. You both know that you helped us refine, rewrite, update, and add policies all through our handbook, our recruitment process, and then communicate those policies. So it's just a great thing. It's great business discipline. And it will help you think as a much larger business than you may be depending on your stage of business. When we certified as a women-owned business in 2008, that was really the gold standard for women-owned businesses. That really helped us not only operationally to benchmark against other organizations, women-owned or not, but we also were able to join a rising group of minority business owners. So in the business world, women were sort of one of the first minority groups to be identified. Now, I would say today, not only is that a completely outdated and irrelevant term, I think that there are many of us that would say, I'm not marginalized in any way, except for gender, we're seeing gender rollback. And my, and our rights as a female gender, our sisters and brothers and LGBTQ plus, and certainly other diverse communities, which are different, differently abled, you know, racially, et cetera. So I believe that these certifications continue to be really important and they're important for organizations like ours to continue to advance because we bring others with us. And so these certifications have gotten beehive into many, many rooms that we would not have been invited to because business, government organizations that do billions of dollars in business really are committed. In some ways they're committed by mission, but mostly they're committed by their operating commitments and bylaws and in fact, federal and regional laws. uh, state laws that tell them they have to let us into the room. And when we get into those rooms, we bring others with us and there's great data to demonstrate that. And so those certifications continue to be very important. There are still a lot of doors to be knocked on and a lot of doors to be knocked down. And if we can do that, we'll bring others. That's our job. That's our, that is, that's my job.

(01:00:42 - 01:01:55) Felicia Jadczak: It's interesting what you've just shared around women as a group in a lot of this dynamics and marginalized groups and things like that, because I was just reading an article this morning in Bloomberg that shared that the number of women in C-suite jobs at major companies has actually decreased for the first time in 20 years. And a large part of that is because of this movement, this anti-woke, anti-DEI backlash and movement from the right that is also impacting white women and women in general. And there's, of course, a lot of intersectionality across the board when we start talking about groups and identities. But it is something that I thought was really fascinating because I think that a lot of this backlash or whatever these movements are, I believe there's a very narrow lens that a lot of folks are thinking about, and a lot of it is focused on the racial equity movements that have come out of the last couple of years with everything that we've already talked about. But it's spreading to other groups as well. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, of course, but it has very broad-reaching, very long-term impacts and implications across the board.

(01:01:56 - 01:02:54) Lisa Hannum: So Felicia, the interesting part about that data and that trend is that that's one marker. But the real question is, where do they go? And we're seeing record startups by marginalized communities or at the intersection of pick your non-white male classes of identification, for lack of a better way to put it. Sincerely, the real question is where they go. Just because that number is declining, is it because, we'll take women because that's what the data focused on, is it because women are now empowered enough to say, I don't need this crap. I'm going to go start my own business. If I can't make the progress inside this organization that I know is required and that aligns to my values, I'll go do it somewhere else.

(01:02:55 - 01:03:07) Felicia Jadczak: You're literally speaking our language, Lisa. That's why Rachel and I are doing the work that we're doing. Right. Yep. You know, we both have had long careers in other spaces and we are doing this work together for a reason.

(01:03:07 - 01:04:16) Lisa Hannum: That's why we have choices. So, you know, the world has choices and probably no more so from the marginalized communities that we're talking about than white women. So if you you don't need to remain in an environment that does not align with your needs and values. And for women that choose to be in those environments, the work that I've seen them do, the work that I've seen people in our BIPOC brothers and sisters do has been phenomenal. And there are many, many organizations, even in the top Fortune 500 that are doing really, really great work. There really are. So I'm not in any way trying to lump everyone together. But I think the data has to go further than just, you know, we're declining here. Well, where'd they go? Because these are smart, curious, successful human beings. They're not sitting on their couch.

(01:04:16 - 01:05:29) Felicia Jadczak: Maybe they did for like 90 days, but- I mean, listen, we all need to balance and break and burnout is a real issue, but you know, and I, we could probably talk for another hour about this because I think it's such an important point because yes, a lot of folks are starting their own companies and where else are they going? They're going to other industries, other companies, other organizations. They're leaving the workforce altogether maybe. There's so many places that people are kind of moving into and moving out of. And I think that's going to have, again, longer lasting implications because if you think about the entrepreneurship journey, there are so many built in systemic challenges and hurdles that are going to be there still, even for these fresh entrepreneurs coming out of these jobs and starting their companies. You know, we could talk about private equity for days and days and days. We unfortunately do not have time to get into that. But yes, really interesting points and a lot to noodle on there. We just have a couple of minutes left together, Lisa. So I'd like to maybe shift gears a little bit as we start to wrap up. And I'd love to know what's next for you. What are your future goals, aspirations, personally or for Beehive or both?

(01:05:30 - 01:07:11) Lisa Hannum: At some point, there will be an after beehive for me. As I mentioned, our, you know, our leadership team has been together for a long time, and I'm very committed to helping others, supporting others to rise. And so, however that looks and whenever that looks, I don't know yet, but we have really open conversations about really making space for others. So, after beehive, however that looks, I know that I'll have the space and the time to really continue to use my communication skills to support in a couple of areas. One area that I'm passionate about and do some work in now is to support women and diverse candidates to run for office and win. So that's something that I work on on a state level and a city county level right now. But that is also a social impact area for beehive, which is at the intersection of voting rights and women. Those are both two social impact areas that are very, very important to us and we do a lot of work around. And the other would be to really be looking at comms in the areas of environment and social justice and again there's intersectionality there. And so it's probably not surprising as a founder of a B Corp, that these are the territories that I'd like to just go very deeply into. I look forward to being able to immerse myself and learn there, but also bring some pretty serious communication and messaging skills to folks. So it's really where I'd like to do.

(01:07:11 - 01:07:22) Rachel Murray: That is so needed. And I feel like you kind of answered the geek out question, but I wanted to know where can people find you to learn more and connect?

(01:07:22 - 01:08:28) Lisa Hannum: So finding Beehive is really easy. So if you Search Beehive Strategic Communication or just head to beehivepr.biz. You're going to find a lot about our company. So we are very transparent. We have a whole impact tab on our website. So you're going to see our plan, what we stand for, the work that we do. You're going to see the report that we file with the Secretary of State on our impact report every year. You'll see what accountability looks like. So go there. Also follow our social channels. You're going to find out a lot about our culture. That's important because people are looking to implement best-in-class cultures and to earn being a best-in-class culture. You'll find most of that on Instagram. And then I would also point you to LinkedIn, those two are primary channels. And follow me on LinkedIn. Send me a friend request. I will be your friend. But that's really, we do a lot of thought leadership there. And those are really the best places to engage with our business. And we love to engage with new folks. So we invite you to find us there.

(01:08:28 - 01:08:29) Felicia Jadczak: Thank you so much, Lisa.

(01:08:29 - 01:08:42) Felicia Jadczak: It's been such a pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much for the time. Thank you both. Thank you again, Lisa. We hope you enjoyed listening to our interview with Lisa as much as we enjoyed the conversation.

(01:08:42 - 01:08:58) Rachel Murray: And thank you all so much for listening. Please don't forget to rate, share and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension this work. And visit us on the YouTubes, Instagram, LinkedIn to stay up to date on all things Inclusion Geeks. Bye.

(01:08:58 - 01:08:58) Felicia Jadczak: Bye.